0:00

My version of of is, save

0:02

my money and spend money and

0:04

spend his... Yes! his bricks to

0:06

build to build my empire. Shaderra Eggerweh

0:08

an outspoken activist and

0:10

dominatrix whose campaign, saggy

0:12

boobes matter and radical

0:14

views on feminism her

0:17

her into the public up. We've

0:19

not had reparations the people we lay with are

0:21

the people the is lucky to kill us. likely to

0:23

really dark, but that's the reality

0:25

we're living in the a lot

0:28

of women. They're enslaved women, they're enslaved. of

0:30

course Oh yeah, of course. on code of patriarchy.

0:32

I have to ask, you are

0:34

a Yes. This is what I This is what

0:36

I always pictured. a woman A woman

0:38

with a man with man with on. BDSM is

0:40

all about BDSM is all about exploring

0:43

power dynamics. who White men who

0:45

specifically be by a to be Okay, everyone is choose

0:47

woman. I need right. into me, because

0:49

I need to go into detail

0:51

with this, please. the Even in just

0:53

world, world, there are men who

0:55

are still submissive, but there are

0:58

more subtle signs you can tell. tell.

1:00

For example, I

1:03

have to ask, have you ever been

1:05

in love with a man? man? Before

1:10

we get into it, I just wanted to

1:12

mention something interesting that we've noticed recently. that

1:15

Around 9 in 10 of you

1:17

watching these videos aren't subscribed yet. subscribed

1:20

yet. pressure at all, at but if you're

1:22

enjoying the content, content, is a super simple

1:24

way to stay connected with us and it

1:26

also helps us out a ton with

1:28

growing the channel. with We also

1:30

look at every comment, so make sure

1:32

you comment with your guest ideas

1:34

below and we'll be sure to take

1:36

note take we'll try to get your

1:38

favorite guest on future episodes. episodes. I appreciate

1:40

you being here, so thanks for watching

1:42

here, let's get into it. for

1:44

watching and let's get

1:47

into it. Now here's

1:49

what I found Now here's

1:51

what I found interesting I put in

1:53

in your name into Google,

1:55

right? right? Slum flower is

1:58

is typically what pops up. up. And

2:00

that's a brand, but also like

2:02

a moniker. Yeah, cool, a moniker.

2:05

Okay. Where does that term, because

2:07

you titled yourself this, Slumflower, where

2:09

does that come from? So it's

2:11

the whole idea of first of

2:14

all I'm born and raised in

2:16

Peckham and back in the mid-90s

2:18

well into the early 2000s Peckham

2:20

was seen as a place that

2:22

was often associated with violence and

2:25

more of the negative connotations that

2:27

you would associate with the word

2:29

ghetto. and me being a young

2:31

teenager I loved the idea of

2:34

two packs rose growing from concrete

2:36

concept and at the time there

2:38

was this photography duo that were

2:40

huge on tumbla which back in

2:42

the day was the it social

2:45

media platform for creative people back

2:47

in the 2013-2012 period and there

2:49

was a photography duo called Street

2:51

Etiquette to black men and they

2:53

were shooting beautiful imagery of black

2:56

people and there was a particular

2:58

project that they did called Slumflower

3:00

and it was centering around this

3:02

young black child and he all

3:05

these incredibly tailored suits. He looked

3:07

about four years old and they

3:09

were shooting pictures of him in

3:11

what was depicted to be a

3:13

hut. I really resonated with those

3:16

two ideas because growing up in

3:18

Peckham and being in an environment

3:20

that doesn't necessarily promote my growth.

3:22

I wanted to embody a name

3:25

that represents that I can come

3:27

from something that isn't immediately going

3:29

to be associated with success on

3:31

the surface. Okay, that's beautiful, that's

3:33

beautiful. And by the way, I'm

3:36

a huge fan of POC, a

3:38

matter of fact, that's the reason

3:40

why I got my nose pierced.

3:42

No, yes, yes. You get it

3:44

on the same side as they

3:47

were. Same, same, same thing. That's

3:49

why I won't even do the...

3:51

only had the studs. I was

3:53

like, I'm going to do a

3:56

two-five thing. Yeah, I'm committed to

3:58

it. It looks cool though. Same

4:00

thing, same thing. But I'd say,

4:02

I've always been impressed with his

4:04

lyricism, you know, and what he

4:07

was depicting and how he was

4:09

that flower that grew out of

4:11

concrete, right? What was your environment

4:13

like within Peckham? And I bring

4:16

that up because I grew up

4:18

in what was considered a tough

4:20

area, right? But then also I

4:22

saw that my immediate environment was

4:24

a little bit different than even

4:27

my neighbors' environment, right? It cushioned

4:29

me. But what would you say

4:31

your immediate environment did for you?

4:33

So Peckham has a nickname of

4:36

being Leculagos because of the dense

4:38

Nigerian population in Peckham and so

4:40

for me growing up in Peckham

4:42

and being raised by two Nigerian

4:44

parents in a Nigerian community and

4:47

having this upbringing that centered around,

4:49

you know, focusing on your books,

4:51

you need to be successful one

4:53

day, I don't want to see

4:55

you outside hanging around with boys,

4:58

it was very strict. I had

5:00

what people would often refer to

5:02

as helicopter parenting. My mom was

5:04

the dominant force in the household,

5:07

which is a very common thing

5:09

in Nigerian families. The mother normally

5:11

takes on more of a dominant

5:13

role. especially when it comes to

5:15

which parent asserts over the kids.

5:18

And so my mom was what

5:20

I'd describe as a helicopter mom.

5:22

And to expand on that phrase,

5:24

extremely protective, to a point where

5:27

I would probably describe as doing

5:29

the opposite of what she probably

5:31

wanted, because when you're overprotective towards

5:33

your child, you actually pushed them

5:35

away. Because what you're trying to

5:38

protect them from is based on

5:40

your own fears as a parent.

5:42

And so when you project your

5:44

own fears onto your child, especially

5:46

in an environment where you're telling

5:49

them things like, it's dangerous out

5:51

there, you gotta come home immediately

5:53

from school. no socializing afterwards, there's

5:55

an extremism that's created which breaks

5:58

the trust. So even though I

6:00

wasn't a sneaky child that went

6:02

off to go and sneak to

6:04

parties and sneak to go do

6:06

drugs or sneak to go and

6:09

do the things that were my

6:11

parents' worst nightmare. I would genuinely

6:13

sneak to just hang out with

6:15

my friends and be creative, like

6:18

sneak to go take photos of

6:20

my photographer friends or sneak to

6:22

go and attend like art events

6:24

because I just really wanted to

6:26

be a part of something. And

6:29

very early on in my late

6:31

teenagehood I felt like I was

6:33

living a double lighting where on

6:35

the outside. when I wasn't around

6:37

my mom I was more of

6:40

myself and then as I was

6:42

you know approaching home putting the

6:44

key through the door I had

6:46

to switch on a version of

6:49

myself that was performatively docile and

6:51

performing this innocence and performing this

6:53

lack of awareness of how the

6:55

world around me works because if

6:57

my mother was to noticed that

7:00

I was too aware and that

7:02

would give away to her that

7:04

I've obviously been doing some sneaky

7:06

things, which would bring on a

7:09

lot of very heavy punishment that

7:11

would be quite, I mean it's

7:13

the whole thing of it's so

7:15

normalized in African culture. to have

7:17

extreme punishments for things that don't

7:20

match what you're being punished for.

7:22

So there was a lot of

7:24

yelling in my household, a lot

7:26

of beating. I think it's a

7:29

thing that was learnt culturally from

7:31

my mother, whoever raised my mother,

7:33

whoever raised a person, who raised

7:35

my mother, that... taking

7:37

a child's self-esteem apart is a

7:39

form of corrective punishment, which as

7:41

you come to find later on

7:43

when it's now a time in

7:45

both of your lives as mother

7:47

and child where you have now

7:49

got an adult child who has

7:52

moved out and your adult child

7:54

doesn't speak to you anymore, that's

7:56

very difficult to grapple with. in

7:58

where it's been six years I

8:00

don't speak to my mom and

8:02

that's a choice that I made.

8:04

You currently do not speak to

8:06

your mother. Yeah, and it's not

8:08

something that I talk about Austin,

8:10

no because I'm ashamed about it.

8:12

It's something that I wish I

8:14

could talk about more often. It's

8:16

that whole thing of you know

8:18

Stockholm syndrome. you're sort of protective

8:20

of the image of the person

8:22

who did what they did to

8:24

you because the immediate perception for

8:26

that person hearing about themselves being

8:28

spoken about in this way would

8:30

be you're saying bad things about

8:32

me what about all the nice

8:34

things and I think we can

8:37

accommodate two realities being that you

8:39

can have a parent who is

8:41

incredibly well intended and at times

8:43

can be really loving probably to

8:45

a point of being smothering. and

8:47

at the same time there's things

8:49

that they got wrong and it's

8:51

also about what they're doing in

8:53

the current time to recognize where

8:55

they went wrong and unfortunately my

8:57

mom is not yet in a

8:59

stage where she's prepared to recognize

9:01

where she went wrong so for

9:03

me as the adult child in

9:05

the situation I've had to step

9:07

away. I've had many conversations of

9:09

people where they've been so optimistic

9:11

from a very innocent place where

9:13

they're like, oh, you know, just

9:15

give a chance. Have you really

9:17

told her how you feel? You

9:19

never know people can change. And

9:22

I think I know my own

9:24

mouth well enough, just like. Most

9:26

of us know our own mother

9:28

as well enough to know our

9:30

mothers are capable of, especially when

9:32

it comes to change. And this

9:34

is also a cultural thing as

9:36

well. Why I optimistically say that

9:38

my parents would be the last

9:40

generation of this is because I'm

9:42

now the next, I'm part of

9:44

the generation of looking back and

9:46

seeing how we were treated and

9:48

recognizing how that's created dysfunction in

9:50

our own everyday lives and us

9:52

doing our own bit to repair

9:54

the damage that was done to

9:56

that. And I don't expect my

9:58

mom to start therapy because if

10:00

she recognizes where she went wrong

10:02

with her own daughter there's a

10:04

lot more she's going to have

10:06

to honor. And that's the whole

10:09

identity crisis. The thing about what

10:11

you're saying is that there are

10:13

millions of people who are in

10:15

that exact position with their parents

10:17

and have not yet had, I'd

10:19

say, the strength to create distance

10:21

and understand that. not all families,

10:23

family, and so there's probably a

10:25

tremendous amount of intergenerational trauma happening.

10:27

I also think that for children

10:29

of first-generation immigrants, because I would

10:31

imagine you were born. Yes, my

10:33

mom came from Nigeria, had me.

10:35

Okay, and I'm part of that,

10:37

right? With my mother coming over

10:39

from Jamaica. I would imagine that

10:41

there's even a heightened sense of,

10:43

like, we've got to get this

10:45

right here. It's more of a,

10:47

you know, saving face or so,

10:49

right, because of being in, you

10:51

know, in the Imperial Empire, you

10:54

know, here. Yes. But you have

10:56

had therapy. So now I'm even

10:58

more curious. What about the relationship

11:00

with your father? So interestingly around

11:02

the time when I cut my

11:04

mom off I'd also cut my

11:06

dad off because for me it

11:08

was like my anger towards my

11:10

dad was that he didn't protect

11:12

me like it was a thing

11:14

where he just kind of let

11:16

her just do what she wanted

11:18

to do because she was so

11:20

insistent and it was safer for

11:22

him to just let her do

11:24

what she's doing. Family members who

11:26

are related to me for my

11:28

dad, like his sisters would like

11:30

get involved and be like, dad

11:32

really wants to speak to you.

11:34

We really understand why you're upset.

11:36

Can we arrange a conversation? Can

11:39

we help media? And I was

11:41

like, no, I'm not ready. I

11:43

don't want to talk to him.

11:45

And then it got to a

11:47

stage where I said, you know,

11:49

look, if he wants to ever

11:51

speak to me again, he's going

11:53

to have to write me a

11:55

letter detailing exactly what he's sorry

11:57

for and how he believes that

11:59

I've been impacted. did and he

12:01

just so he wrote the letter

12:03

yeah he wrote the letter and

12:05

like within the first like few

12:07

sentences I was like okay he's

12:09

sorry I can tell that this

12:11

is Because

12:13

my dad is not a very

12:15

outwardly expressive emotional person. During my

12:18

upbringing, never really told me that

12:20

he loved me. And that was

12:22

something that really bothered me. And

12:24

so in the letter, he acknowledged

12:26

that, in the letter, he acknowledged

12:29

that he just really wants to

12:31

have a chance to have a

12:33

relationship with his daughter again. Now

12:35

that him and my mom aren't

12:37

together, he's his own new person.

12:39

And now the relationship I have

12:42

with him is incredibly supportive. He

12:44

says I love you first. I

12:46

think that is that is beautiful

12:48

what happened even to the point

12:50

where you asserted yourself right knowing

12:52

your worth knowing the requirement in

12:55

order to be in your life

12:57

you set those boundaries and and

12:59

he he obliged I think I

13:01

think that's beautiful but that happened

13:03

later in your life right much

13:05

later so then I need to

13:08

years ago that we had that

13:10

conversation all right so if that

13:12

only happened two years ago then

13:14

what were your early romantic relationships?

13:16

Like, because you hadn't had the

13:19

therapy, you were still in that

13:21

environment. what were those relationships like?

13:23

So my earlier relationships were bog

13:25

standard using boys as a site

13:27

to seek validation and so I

13:29

would fall into that classic pattern

13:32

of being the anxious person who

13:34

would go for like the classic

13:36

avoidant boy to me and then

13:38

when he starts pulling away it

13:40

would be this internal panic and

13:42

feeling like I have to pull

13:45

him in clothes and be quite

13:47

passive and clingy and all the

13:49

traits that push, that could push

13:51

anybody away. I got tired of

13:53

that pattern of constantly feeling this

13:56

sense of, you know, this annoying

13:58

situationship work. That was a very

14:00

common thing in my younger teenage

14:02

and early 20s. Our early relationships

14:04

often reflect love we didn't receive

14:06

as children. Leading us to chase

14:09

validation from those who can't provide

14:11

it. But no relationship can fill

14:13

a void only self-love can heal.

14:15

The moment we stop seeking connection

14:17

from a place of need and

14:19

start building our own emotional security,

14:22

we begin to attract love that

14:24

honors our worth. Healing isn't about

14:26

being enough for someone else. It's

14:28

about realizing you've always been enough.

14:30

True transformation happens when you stop

14:32

chasing and start choosing yourself unapologetically.

14:35

At any point up into your

14:37

early 20s, did you ever feel

14:39

like you were truly loved by

14:41

anyone? It's

14:46

tricky to answer because the immediate

14:48

answer is no. If we remove

14:50

the word truly and you've just

14:52

asked me did you feel like

14:54

you were loved up until the

14:56

point of your early 20s, I'll

14:58

say yeah I love me like

15:00

really aggressively and violently and you

15:02

know completely stepping on my boundaries

15:04

but she loved me though, right?

15:06

But the word truly loved, were

15:08

you truly loved up until your

15:10

early 20s? No, because I don't

15:12

even think I truly loved myself.

15:14

Love, so ironically when I moved

15:16

out I was 23 and that

15:18

was when I began a whole

15:20

different journey again of really sitting

15:22

with myself because I moved into

15:24

a place where I was living

15:26

alone and it was during a

15:28

time when me moving out was

15:30

the direct outcome of me cutting

15:32

off my mom. So it was

15:34

like, okay, I'm dealing with separating

15:36

from my mom, living on my

15:38

own for the first time, and

15:40

essentially being confronted with the responsibility

15:42

to be my own person without

15:44

someone telling me what time to

15:46

come home, without someone yelling at

15:48

me, without someone invading my personal

15:50

space. And that was where I

15:52

started to slowly, once again, reframe.

15:54

I view men because even where

15:56

I live now it's still the

15:58

place that I moved into when

16:00

I first moved out and I've

16:02

never ever had a guy there

16:04

like to like sleep with or

16:06

have fun time with. Interesting. Yeah

16:08

and it's not because I'm like

16:10

saving myself a marriage. It's like,

16:12

no, it's just that I have

16:14

not yet felt like a man

16:16

has given me a good reason

16:18

to bring him to my personal

16:20

space. Because what I really hate

16:22

about the idea of bringing romantic

16:24

encounters to your personal spaces, when

16:26

it goes wrong, and you look

16:28

at that chair where they used

16:30

to sit, now you're triggered in

16:32

your own living space, like you'll

16:34

remember, that's the chair they used

16:36

to sit on, or like, do

16:38

you like, you know, I don't

16:40

know, that kind of thing, like,

16:42

buy this place as my sanctuary.

16:44

So you had, have never invited.

16:46

Yeah, I never had a boy

16:48

in my flat. A boy at

16:50

your flat, you've never. Never. Oh

16:52

my gosh, this is, I'm learning,

16:54

okay. This is interesting. No man

16:57

has been well behaved enough. Like

16:59

there's been times when I've considered

17:01

it, well you know how they,

17:03

there's that saying of once you

17:05

speak highly of a man, he

17:07

lets you down or once you

17:09

put an emoji next to his

17:11

name. That's when he asked us.

17:13

So it's like, at some point

17:15

he's at stuff. I was like,

17:17

oh my goodness, because I was

17:19

about to invite him. When

17:21

I look back, the answer is no.

17:23

But at the time, there would have

17:26

been times when I'd be like, yeah,

17:28

totally. But now looking back at a

17:30

full glance. No. No. Okay. Okay. All

17:33

right. So now, you then enter, I

17:35

would say, the public's fear. Yes. With.

17:39

Is it saggy boobes matter? Yeah,

17:41

hashtag saggy boobes matter. This is

17:43

really 2018. Yeah, this kind of

17:46

puts you on the map. Yes.

17:48

Right, because BBC names you at

17:50

one of the top most influential

17:52

women in the UK. Those, these

17:55

are your receipts. Say it, say

17:57

it proudly. This is big. So.

17:59

how did you get to this

18:02

place where you said that you

18:04

needed to stand by saggy boobes

18:06

matter? And not just the term,

18:08

but it seemed as if what

18:11

was happening is that you were

18:13

really forming a philosophy in life.

18:15

Yeah, so around the time when

18:17

I started saggy boobes matter, that

18:20

was 2018, I was still living

18:22

with my parents. That

18:25

was during a time when the

18:27

internet was a lot more of

18:29

a battlefield than it is now

18:31

in terms of social media, specifically

18:33

Twitter, being a platform where all

18:35

kinds of abuse would fly. It

18:37

was more common for, especially my

18:39

age grew back then, a lot

18:41

of the black men just throwing

18:43

abuse at black women. That was

18:45

very common. And so around that

18:48

period, that was when Riana was

18:50

in her absolute... heyday of killer

18:52

outfits and she had like those

18:54

times she released like a river

18:56

island collection like this is the

18:58

way she was doing her her

19:00

tours and this is pre-fenty pre-fenty

19:02

way before fenty was even a

19:04

thing yes and she used to

19:06

wear the skin piece of outfits

19:08

and not wear a bra of

19:10

her outfits and by then she

19:12

had a much slimmer frame because

19:14

she was much younger and had

19:16

like a very party-filled lifestyle. And

19:18

so there were so many photos

19:20

of her being seen leaving clubs

19:22

and like she's like in a

19:24

string vest and it's that cool

19:26

chic no bra look but because

19:28

she has a slim physique and

19:30

small boobs it really worked. So

19:32

when I would try the same

19:34

thing because I got bigger boobs

19:36

and they just like real boobs

19:38

don't grow upwards. It would make

19:40

any sense. Yeah, the gravity. Yeah,

19:42

right, like they grow downwards and

19:44

so they just appear more saggy

19:46

and when I would wear the

19:48

same office as Riana and I'm

19:50

just as slim as her, but

19:52

I just have bigger and longer

19:54

boobs, people would be really mean

19:57

about it and come up with

19:59

very creative insults and it was

20:01

mainly black. and the intention behind

20:03

their insults was to reduce myself

20:05

esteem and to punch down on

20:07

this person who dares be confident

20:09

despite not fitting into the beauty

20:11

standard and that was a thing

20:13

that was going on for quite

20:15

a long time and so I

20:17

decided to flip it on his

20:19

head and me being the stubborn,

20:21

sagitorious that I am. I'm a

20:23

very stubborn person. I turned it

20:25

into a thing and I was

20:27

like, I know it's going to

20:29

annoy you. Here's another picture of

20:31

me being very happy in my

20:33

low-cut-top. And again, war and more

20:35

abuse. And then I started to

20:37

say things that, Sagi Boos actually

20:39

matter, like Sagi Boos are beautiful,

20:41

leave me alone. And then I

20:43

started to take that conversation to

20:45

Instagram, which is a very different

20:47

platform, and then women across different

20:49

age groups. came across this conversation

20:51

with Instagram. What was interesting was

20:53

the 17 year old women, they

20:55

were saying very concerning things like

20:57

they're happy they've come across me

20:59

talking about hashtag saggy use matter

21:01

because it's encouraged them to not

21:03

go to a plastic surgery consultation

21:06

that they were considering. Didn't even

21:08

know 17 you would even be

21:10

allowed to see a plastic surgeon

21:12

because that's still really young and

21:14

then they were breastfeeding lovers who

21:16

would approach me online and say

21:18

that they really find so much

21:20

value in what I'm talking about

21:22

because people around them have advised

21:24

them to not breastfeed so they

21:26

can preserve the perkiness of their

21:28

boobs, which to me is ridiculous.

21:30

And then the women in their

21:32

late 40s, early 50s, some of

21:34

them were saying to me that

21:36

this movement has really encouraged them

21:38

to for the first time in

21:40

a long time. So it's interesting

21:42

how That particular movement touched such

21:44

a varying assortment of women and

21:46

it got so viral that I

21:48

ended up on ITV this morning

21:50

talking about Sankipiv's Merta with Amen

21:52

and Ruth. And that particular conversation

21:54

has like millions of views. Again,

21:56

I didn't even expect it to

21:58

be such a huge... conversation

22:02

because the title has to ask

22:04

that he views matter sounds really

22:06

ridiculous but it's deeper than just

22:08

vanity and self-obsession. It's about how

22:10

beauty standards affect the ways that

22:12

we allocate worth to people especially

22:15

women and how women are damned

22:17

if we do, damned if we

22:19

don't and in the eyes of

22:21

society, largely patriarchy, largely men, were

22:23

never going to be enough anyway.

22:25

So it spurred on a conversation

22:28

of self-love, which then led into

22:30

me discussing more of the more

22:32

psychological aspect of self-love, as opposed

22:34

to more of the visual side

22:36

of it. Yes. Which is where

22:39

I'm at now for my journey.

22:41

Yeah, I can see, it's interesting,

22:43

I can see how it's been

22:45

this natural, this has been an

22:47

evolution, you know, of your ideas.

22:49

And so initially it was body

22:52

image, you know, but it has

22:54

really morphed into self-love, self-worth, but

22:56

then also a lot of conversation

22:58

around men. for sure because the

23:00

two of them are in direct

23:03

correlation with one another and the

23:05

reason I say that is because

23:07

for a lot of women how

23:09

they feel about themselves is determined

23:11

by how other people feel about

23:13

them specifically how men feel about

23:16

them and I noticed this especially

23:18

when I was discussing saggy boobs

23:20

matter in the early days a

23:22

lot of women would express to

23:24

me that their boyfriends left them

23:26

or cheated with somebody who had

23:29

a quote better body than them

23:31

and It gave them even more

23:33

in securities about their boobs. A

23:35

lot of emphasis being placed on

23:37

body image in relation to how

23:40

attracted to them that men are.

23:42

And to this day, I still

23:44

have conversations with women where I

23:46

can tell that they base their

23:48

self-image and their self-worth on how

23:50

men see them and how attracted

23:53

to them men are. And that

23:55

doesn't come from nothing. is because

23:57

we live in a society where

23:59

men assign women humanity and wealth

24:01

based on how attracted they are

24:03

to them. So much so that

24:06

it's such a common thing when

24:08

women are considering receiving help from

24:10

a man. There's this internal battle

24:12

of should I receive this help

24:14

or not because I'm going to

24:17

owe him something afterwards. It's this

24:19

whole idea that a man rarely

24:21

ever helps you for free. It's

24:23

this idea that if a man

24:25

is helping you, it's probably because

24:27

he was to sleep with you

24:30

and he's using this as a

24:32

way to deliberately put you in

24:34

a place where you're more likely

24:36

to feel guilty because he's helped

24:38

you. So out of that guilt,

24:40

you're going to sleep with him

24:43

or you're going to give him

24:45

some sort of sexual favour. And

24:47

that's the unwritten code of patriarchy.

24:49

Yeah, let's go deeper into this

24:51

because you're touching upon an area

24:54

that, you know, when I was

24:56

doing my research on you, I

24:58

felt... This is so interesting because

25:00

you could be, I say, one

25:02

of the few, but I honestly

25:04

could not identify anyone else speaking

25:07

about this subject the way that

25:09

you speak about the subject. So,

25:11

and you know, I haven't talked

25:13

to all 8 billion people in

25:15

the world, but you're definitely, I

25:17

think, one of the more prominent

25:20

voices on this. So in particular,

25:22

I want to look first at

25:24

this idea of love, right? and

25:26

I've seen you talk about this

25:28

right about this that the idea

25:31

to traditional idea of love is

25:33

damaging specifically for women. Why so?

25:35

The reason why I think that

25:37

the traditional definition of love is

25:39

damaging for women is because it

25:41

involves us being self-sacrificial in order

25:44

to prove our worth and what

25:46

I mean by us being self-sacrificial

25:48

is you hear these stories of

25:50

women saying that you

25:52

know I was close to finishing my

25:55

degree and I was off to follow

25:57

my dreams and then I love and

25:59

then he said why don't we move

26:02

countries because he's starting a new job

26:04

on another continent and I wanted to

26:06

choose love so I left my dreams

26:09

behind in my country of origin and

26:11

I moved to go stay with him

26:13

so that I could help him to

26:15

follow his dreams and I could be

26:18

the good wife and ends up becoming

26:20

that you know You stay in that

26:22

for years and you're quietly resentful as

26:25

a woman because their marriage wasn't really

26:27

worth you upping and leaving your life

26:29

for and now you stop to your

26:31

dreams to fulfil someone else's and you're

26:34

not even being appreciated and it ends

26:36

up being nine times out of ten

26:38

that man is cheated anyway and now

26:41

you just feel really stupid and you

26:43

feel like all that time has gone

26:45

to waste and there's nothing you can

26:47

do about it because you can't get

26:50

that time back. That's something I see

26:52

very commonly. Some people might argue like,

26:54

oh she talks about men too much,

26:57

she talks about love too much, this

26:59

is so repetitive, but the reality is

27:01

women have lost their lives in pursuit

27:03

of men, women have given up their

27:06

futures in pursuit of love, and I

27:08

think we all need to really sit

27:10

down and ask ourselves individuals like what

27:13

does love actually mean for me and

27:15

what in my life resembles that? Does

27:17

the man I've chosen resemble the love

27:20

that I want and deserve? So that

27:22

makes a question what does love mean

27:24

to you? So to

27:26

me love is unconditional acceptance and at

27:28

the same time love is also an

27:31

action. I want to feel taken care

27:33

of by him. I want to feel

27:35

prioritized and considered without me taking over

27:38

his life. I think you can prioritize

27:40

things you love without them taking over

27:42

your life and when I expand further

27:45

on wanting to be taken care of

27:47

my expectations of a man who loves

27:49

me. granted that we're in a dynamic

27:52

of a relationship that I've chosen to

27:54

be in with him he'll be financially

27:56

taking care of me and this is

27:59

the part of where

28:01

a lot of people sort of like

28:03

win so they're like oh I don't

28:05

like that it's uncomfortable because I

28:08

think especially when it comes to

28:10

feminism coming into the conversation, when

28:12

we discuss money and men, it's

28:15

a very touchy area and that's

28:17

because when we talk about receiving

28:19

financial support from men, especially under

28:22

the umbrella of love, there's this

28:24

idea that if a man financially

28:26

supports you, then he automatically has

28:29

ownership over you and that you

28:31

are infantilised and disempowered because according

28:33

to modern feminism, you need to

28:36

be independent and you need to

28:38

be the girl boss. Girl boss

28:40

so close to the sun that

28:43

you pay his bills because you

28:45

are so empowered. And I think

28:47

that there's a middle area where

28:49

that then diagram meets where you

28:52

can be independent and still receive

28:54

support. So my version of feminism,

28:56

my version of independence is save

28:59

my money and spend his. Yes,

29:02

because I have more economically empowered

29:04

if I have more of my

29:06

own money, use his bricks to

29:08

build my empire. Okay, all right.

29:10

I definitely want to spend a

29:12

lot of time talking about the

29:14

finance, because you know, my first

29:16

career was finance. No way. Yeah,

29:19

I was an investment banker, so

29:21

I was an investment banker. Harris

29:23

must have been proud. And then,

29:25

yeah, but it... Think of how

29:27

proud they were. When I said

29:29

I'm going to become an investment

29:31

banker, then think of how disappointed

29:33

they were. When I said, I

29:36

think I'm going to give it

29:38

all up and become a matchmaker.

29:40

Why? Which one is a much

29:42

weaker? He called, well, which one

29:44

is much weaker? He called, all

29:46

so much bigger. Yeah, exactly. Much

29:48

more money and finance. But just

29:50

on the love, what I find

29:53

interesting is so you're saying a

29:55

component then. of love. Is this

29:57

for you where you're saying generally

29:59

or actually no you're saying we

30:01

all need to define for ourselves?

30:03

We should define love for ourselves

30:05

but then where my work is

30:07

at the moment is me radically

30:09

believing in the idea that if

30:12

women are going to be in

30:14

partnership with men women need to

30:16

materially benefit from that. Because women

30:18

are not old reparations and the

30:20

people we lay with are the

30:22

people who are most likely to

30:24

kill us. which sounds really dark

30:26

but that's the reality we're living

30:29

in. If you look at the

30:31

statistics about intimate partner violence, it's

30:33

really saddening to see, but also

30:35

I think it's so interesting that

30:37

women are expected. traditionally under this

30:39

definition of love to be the

30:41

homemaker to be the all-star sexual

30:43

being to be ever emotionally present

30:46

and what do we expect of

30:48

men just like come home with

30:50

a briefcase down be there I

30:52

guess like we're not asking enough

30:54

of men and this is again

30:56

where the conversation gets really touchy

30:58

because it could be argued which

31:00

is true that men are having

31:03

a difficult time mentally there's this

31:05

whole conversation about the male loneliness

31:07

epidemic which I find quite interesting

31:09

and almost hilarious because it's like

31:11

really oh yeah of course you're

31:13

gonna be lonely you've killed all

31:15

the women like what do you

31:17

mean why you can't blame you

31:20

like you're lonely but also irony

31:22

and sarcasm aside I think the

31:24

male-knowniness epidemic and feminism, these are

31:26

all components that exist next to

31:28

each other because what's happening is

31:30

the more women find their worth,

31:32

the more they don't want to

31:34

be around men. And men are

31:36

like, oh, what about me? I

31:39

want you to send to me

31:41

more. And it's like, well, men

31:43

need to learn to find sustenance,

31:45

entertainment, and sexual gratification outside of

31:47

women because we don't owe men

31:49

that. And so when I talk

31:51

about money, I wouldn't date a

31:53

man who isn't a provider, a

31:56

provider. all the men who are

31:58

on the complete opposite side of

32:00

that. harp on about male loneliness,

32:02

they're the ones who come into

32:04

my comments and they're like, well

32:06

this sounds really cold, what about

32:08

love? This is all about love.

32:10

Well, so then, are you an

32:13

advocate for marriage? Yes,

32:15

on the terms that the woman benefits.

32:17

Okay. So what I mean by that

32:20

is, if someone was to ask me,

32:22

which I get this question quite often,

32:24

would you ever get married? And when

32:27

I give this answer, people laugh and

32:29

I'm being serious, like take me seriously

32:31

guys. I would genuinely marry if there's

32:34

properties in plural, properties in my name,

32:36

assets in my name. I want land,

32:38

I want assets, I want properties. I'm

32:41

not marrying for love just as an

32:43

emotion, I'm marrying for love as security.

32:45

I'm marrying for my future to be

32:47

set good for the future of my

32:50

children, for the rest of my life

32:52

and their life. Look,

32:54

I may not always agree

32:56

with Caddero, but I deeply

32:59

value her perspective and where

33:01

she's coming from. What she's

33:03

talking about here underscores an

33:05

important truth. Marriage, at its

33:07

core, is both an emotional

33:10

and practical union. Now while

33:12

love is often romanticized as

33:14

the sole reason to marry,

33:16

her emphasis on security, assets,

33:18

and a stable future challenges

33:21

us to think deeper about

33:23

what partnership should actually provide.

33:25

Now love without security can

33:27

leave people vulnerable, and security

33:29

without love can feel hollow.

33:31

The most resilient marriages strike

33:34

a balance, offering emotional fulfillment

33:36

alongside tangible stability. Her perspective

33:38

invites us to reimagine marriage

33:40

as not just a promise

33:42

of affection, but as a

33:45

collaborative investment in a shared

33:47

future. When I say

33:49

things like that, people tend to have

33:51

a very defensive response and I get

33:53

where it comes from because they're like,

33:55

yeah, but this is so materialistic. What

33:58

about real love? What about if... man

34:00

you fall in love with is a

34:02

man who is really poor and has

34:04

nothing going for him. And my answer

34:06

to that is, well he wouldn't be

34:09

in love for my life. At most

34:11

he could be my friend maybe, but

34:13

I wouldn't marry him because he can't

34:15

give me the lifestyle that I'd want

34:17

to live in. When I think about

34:20

marriage, I think about, okay, if I'm

34:22

30 now, what do I want my

34:24

life to look like in 10 years

34:26

time, 15 years time? and how can

34:28

I marry in that direction? Because the

34:31

origin of marriage is about welfare distribution,

34:33

it is about a structure where it

34:35

is a contract, and you know how

34:37

it is of contracts, the person who

34:39

drafts the contracts are the one who

34:42

benefits more, and patriarchy. Men

34:44

are the ones who are in

34:46

charge of all of this infrastructure.

34:48

So it's always going to benefit

34:50

them. It's about just going for

34:52

beyond the first guy who gives

34:54

you a compliment and being like,

34:56

well I have to marry him

34:58

because I've been swept off my

35:00

feet. It's about understanding that you're

35:02

deserving of compliments, you're beautiful, like

35:04

men are going to flatter you

35:06

all the time. But you need

35:09

to do the picking. You need

35:11

to make these men audition. You.

35:13

Okay. And I'm with you on

35:15

that. Right. is the assets part,

35:17

right? So are you saying, let's

35:19

say, for example, we have a

35:21

gentleman who, let's say, is 25

35:23

years old, and it's a heterosexual

35:25

relationship, you have the woman who

35:27

has a higher level of education,

35:29

makes more money than he does,

35:31

has more assets than he does.

35:33

But he's a nice guy and

35:35

he says he loves her. He

35:37

says. What do you think should

35:39

happen in that situation and he

35:42

wants to marry her? What should

35:44

she do? I think she

35:46

shouldn't marry him. Sounds going to sound so

35:48

heartless and cold. I know people are going

35:50

to be like, this is horrible. What do

35:52

you mean? She's already got her own assets

35:54

anyway. He just, all she needs is just

35:56

his life. If I was in that scenario

35:58

you've just described of, which I've am

36:01

really, I have a lot going for me,

36:03

I'm successful in my own right, and that's

36:05

the more reason why I'm always looking for

36:07

like what's out there, what's bigger, there's always

36:09

someone who's got more than me, I can

36:11

learn from him, I can take his assets.

36:13

Right, and you know, so, Chidera, the reason

36:15

why I asked about that scenario is because

36:18

that was me and my wife. That

36:21

was exactly us. At 25, my

36:24

wife had a master's degree. I

36:26

didn't have a master's degree yet.

36:28

She was working in a law

36:30

firm. She was making much more

36:32

money than I was. And she

36:34

was wealthier. She had more assets.

36:36

She had a higher net worth

36:38

than I did at 25. And

36:40

then we got married. 25. And

36:43

she did something that I know

36:46

you're going to say was insane.

36:48

I wanted to start a business

36:50

and I didn't have any money.

36:52

And you know what she did?

36:55

Did she invest in you? She

36:57

liquidated her retirement fund. Girl, where

36:59

you at? She liquidated her, so

37:02

all of her savings for retirement.

37:04

She took that out, she took

37:06

the penalty, and she gave it

37:08

over to me, and she said,

37:11

all right, you want to start

37:13

a business? Started with that. Wow.

37:15

That's a huge gamble to take.

37:18

And I'm saying that, I feel

37:20

like, okay, maybe we're the exception.

37:22

But the reason why I bring

37:24

that up is because that is

37:27

an actual example of it working.

37:29

And if she didn't accept the

37:31

fact that I said I loved

37:34

her, if she looked at my

37:36

assets, if she looked at, you

37:38

know, if she looked at the

37:40

education, you know, I wouldn't, I

37:43

definitely wouldn't be here sitting in

37:45

front of you. I hear that

37:47

and at the same time. from

37:51

the person that I've seen you to be,

37:53

because I'm like, I don't want to make

37:55

you feel old, but like growing up I've

37:57

seen you on my telly loads. by

37:59

the way, praise God's for life.

38:01

But like, life. saying this is, you

38:03

would have gotten way, like saying

38:06

this determined person, have not saying that a

38:08

determined person I'm not saying that we're taking

38:10

credit away from the incredible gesture of love

38:12

and kindness and support that your partner put

38:14

into you at that time there's been times

38:16

when I've been with men and I've been with

38:18

them and that situation, but your been

38:20

a situation where I've outgrown

38:23

and where I've outgrown and I've

38:25

completely out earned him and and I'm looking

38:27

here and I'm and like, I can't

38:29

I can't do this I I know what's going

38:31

to happen like you're going to start feeling going to

38:33

and this is going to start to affect

38:35

me and is going So out of the love I

38:37

have for you, I I need you to just

38:39

go do your thing. And if it's meant

38:41

to be, you'll come find me to be you not

38:43

coming down from the top shelf cause you can't

38:45

reach me. the top shelf because you can't reach me. I'm so is

38:48

it that you need to see the

38:50

see the result? before

38:52

you say say the behavior. behavior. example, for

38:54

example, the like the behavior that

38:57

you're attributing to me, which I

38:59

appreciate I you're saying all right. is

39:01

you're was ambitious, I which was

39:03

ambitious, which I was resilient. So

39:05

potential on the resilience maybe

39:08

the ambition. So if someone's

39:10

coming to you with ambition

39:12

or resilience resilience or to any

39:14

out here, yes, they have

39:16

those characteristics, but they

39:18

don't yet have the have the.

39:20

business the the television shows, like they don't

39:22

have the football team. Like they don't

39:24

have they things. They're not all those things if they don't

39:26

they don't have those, but they have

39:28

that. All the components to get that.

39:30

To get there, then what's your opinion?

39:33

is your My opinion opinion is

39:35

when you've blown, come find me. me and And

39:37

to expand on that, I always say like

39:39

what one man is building another man. has

39:41

built. has built and it sounds sounds so what about

39:43

what about like it's like, I I'm a

39:45

woman, I don't have the time to wait.

39:47

I'm not going to wait for a

39:49

man because there are some people who have

39:51

potential and they never see their potential

39:54

through. And for women, we women we from

39:56

that dice from that dice-tose taking

39:58

a chance a chance man. man. almost

40:00

like when you're in the airport

40:02

and there's a conveyor belt you

40:04

can walk on. I see the

40:06

man is that. Like he's not

40:08

the destination, he's the conveyor belt.

40:10

I can get there quicker with

40:13

him. In fact, there are men

40:15

who I meet who they thrive

40:17

when they're in a position where

40:19

they're being of service to a

40:21

woman. I saw that happen recently

40:23

in a conversation that... came

40:25

to the service about Nick Cannon and

40:27

Mariah Carey, where Nick Cannon was expressing

40:29

that during his period of being married

40:31

to Mariah Carey, she was high-flying and

40:33

successful and had all the money and

40:35

she would express to him that all

40:37

she wants from him is love and

40:40

so there were times when he'll feel

40:42

really embarrassed as a man because he's

40:44

just holding the nappy bags and he

40:46

doesn't really know what else he can

40:48

do really because she's on tour and

40:50

she's doing all the things and she's

40:52

the breadwinner and he didn't feel useful

40:54

and even though I don't agree that

40:56

people have to insert

40:59

money into love to feel useful,

41:01

this is how men see themselves.

41:03

This is how patriarchy operates. That's

41:05

interesting. So you would say that

41:08

that's one of the reasons for

41:10

the demise of that relationship of

41:12

Nick Cannon and Mariah Kerry. For

41:15

sure. Is it because his manhood

41:17

was impacted by her success? I

41:19

adore your ideas and you were,

41:21

and I see what you do

41:24

too, I think you're very clever,

41:26

is that it's like saggy boobs

41:28

matter, it's like you will position

41:31

something in a loud way and

41:33

the ignorant folks just, you just

41:35

eat them up. Like you eat

41:37

them up easily, like it's like

41:40

child's play, like you eat them

41:42

up. But then it causes, I

41:44

think, healthy debate. And debate is

41:47

what destroys ignorance, and that's what

41:49

I love. So I love that

41:51

about your work. But now, is

41:53

that about being a man, or

41:56

is that someone who just has

41:58

an issue with self-worth, you know?

42:00

it about his manhood or is

42:03

it about self-esteem and ego? Most

42:05

men have an issue of self-esteem

42:07

and ego because what men pride

42:09

their manhood on ironically is their

42:12

success, is their money, is the

42:14

size of their dick and as

42:16

much as we spend time trying

42:19

to encourage men to see themselves

42:21

as a full multidimensional human being

42:23

and we try to remind men

42:25

that You're a person, it's okay

42:28

to have feelings, it's okay to

42:30

see yourself beyond the vessel you've

42:32

been born into, they still insist

42:35

on clinging onto those patriarchal ideas

42:37

about themselves, and that's the prison

42:39

that they have unfortunately locked themselves

42:41

in, and they are happily wearing

42:44

that key. They don't care to

42:46

dismantle the structures any time soon.

42:48

So that's why we see that,

42:51

you know, when a man finally

42:53

comes into money. It's

42:55

often the reason why the woman

42:57

who he came up with, he

42:59

leaves her and he goes for

43:01

the women that he couldn't get

43:03

while he was still with the

43:05

woman who built him up to

43:07

where he is. When a man

43:09

comes into money, the first thing

43:11

he does is covers himself in

43:13

flashy things to attract women who

43:15

are drawn to men who... represent

43:17

success because what people refer to

43:19

as gold diggers and women who

43:21

only want to be around successful

43:24

men. It's not about being drawn

43:26

to success on the surface, it's

43:28

about being drawn to safety and

43:30

recognizing that financial safety is important.

43:32

Your financial status reflects the quality

43:34

of your life. And I think

43:36

that there are components that we

43:38

refuse to acknowledge and we'd rather

43:40

just say that, you know, that's

43:43

just an isolated issue. When this is

43:45

patriarchy, this is misogyny, this is the

43:47

idea that a woman can be big

43:50

but not too big because if you're

43:52

too big you're gonna like overshadow the

43:54

man you want to still give him

43:56

room to feel like he's doing something,

43:59

but then you don't want to give

44:01

that man too much power. he feels

44:03

like he can control you. Dating is

44:06

not mandatory to live a full life.

44:08

Dating is a choice. So if you're

44:10

making signs and choices, it's important to

44:13

interrogate those choices. I know a lot

44:15

of women make jokes, including myself, like,

44:17

oh my God, I didn't choose to

44:19

be straight. But we can choose who

44:22

we date, though. True. This is true.

44:24

So if you look throughout the history,

44:26

I'm with you. Marriage, very pragmatic. in

44:29

many metropolitan areas around the world, women

44:31

are out earning men. For sure, especially

44:33

with this influence, a boom. Oh my

44:35

gosh, and people like to get on

44:38

only fans, like, I mean, I mean,

44:40

it is absolutely, and you know, so

44:42

you could see women out earning men

44:45

at a certain point. women

44:47

out educating men, you're seeing

44:49

this happening, right, then having

44:52

more assets, etc. So you

44:54

could see a point where

44:56

in terms of the economics

44:59

of the world, yes, there's

45:01

a balance, there's a balance,

45:03

right, which I think you

45:06

and I, we want this,

45:08

right? Okay, did you ever

45:10

say that marriage is sex

45:13

work? I did, yeah,

45:15

and I expanded and I said

45:17

that marriage is the lowest paid

45:19

form of sex work. And people

45:21

were really annoyed about it. Because

45:23

the lowest. Yes. The lowest paid

45:26

form of sex work. I believe

45:28

marriage is the lowest paid form

45:30

of sex work within the dynamic

45:32

of cishetero marriage between man and

45:34

woman. How so? The reason why

45:37

I say that is because when

45:39

we look at the origins of

45:41

marriage and we observe this ongoing

45:43

growing trend of the tradwife becoming

45:45

this thing that we're seeing everywhere,

45:47

it's this idea that the woman

45:50

is there to serve and to

45:52

be the homekeeper and the idealised

45:54

arrangement is that the man makes

45:56

the money, he finds out she

45:58

takes care of the home and

46:01

you get and acceptance and the

46:03

title of wife in return. And

46:05

now when we look at marriage

46:07

is just more commonly within our

46:09

local sphere outside of the sensationalized

46:11

tradwife content. What we're seeing a

46:14

lot is many unhappily married people,

46:16

specifically women, I receive a lot

46:18

of messages from women who tell

46:20

me that in their marriage they

46:22

essentially have to, it's not like

46:25

they have to, but they feel

46:27

like they have to, like they

46:29

have to, like they have to,

46:31

like they have to, like they

46:33

have to, like they have to,

46:35

like they have to, like they

46:38

have to, like they have to,

46:40

in order for things to be

46:42

done. Whether that's, for example, I

46:44

don't know if you might have

46:46

seen this flying around on the

46:49

internet, there was an interview between

46:51

Katie Perry and Alex Cooper on

46:53

Alex Cooper's podcast called Call Her

46:55

Daddy. And Katie Perry was saying

46:57

that within her marriage to Orlando

46:59

Bloom, if he closes the cupboards

47:02

and cleans the dishes and he's

47:04

going to get his dick sucked,

47:06

as essentially a reward for closing

47:08

the cupboard, washing the plates, just

47:10

being a tidy human being. So

47:13

we see a bartering system in

47:15

place here where outside of Katie

47:17

Perry, because Katie Perry's statement is

47:19

representative of what a lot of

47:21

women are doing in their marriages,

47:23

where you do that thing he

47:26

likes, and then you get a

47:28

particular need met. Now, a lot

47:30

of people found issue of what

47:32

I said, because There's this idea

47:34

that the sex worker versus the

47:37

married woman are in completely different

47:39

worlds where, hierarchically speaking, the married

47:41

woman is at the top of

47:43

the hierarchy because she's married, she's

47:45

been chosen, she's done the thing,

47:48

she's got the ring. But the

47:50

sex worker is positioned towards the

47:52

bottom of the power structure because

47:54

of how society views women who

47:56

engage with men for financial benefit

47:58

and the shaming surrounding that. And

48:01

so the whole pushback towards referring

48:03

to marriage and sex work was

48:05

rooted in this place for married

48:07

women say how dare you liken

48:09

me to a sex worker I

48:12

am not a sex worker when

48:14

in reality as long as you're

48:16

choosing to partner with men there

48:18

is an element of using your

48:20

sexuality to get what you want

48:22

and within sex work sex work

48:25

sex work exists on a spectrum

48:27

so there are more physical

48:29

forms of sex work, which you would

48:32

probably call full service sex work, which

48:34

involves sleeping with someone and doing more

48:36

physical acts. And then when we look

48:39

towards the complete opposite side of the

48:41

spectrum of sex work, there are things

48:43

like, for example, phone sex operators, there

48:45

are dominatrixes, there are people who sell

48:48

foot pictures, whilst what they're doing might

48:50

not immediately. come across to us as

48:52

sex work based on a definition we've

48:54

all been taught. It's all this idea

48:57

of selling your sensuality and exchanging your

48:59

erotic interactions for you to get something

49:01

that you want. There are married women

49:04

who are reluctantly having sex with their

49:06

husbands, who are reluctantly engaging in sexual

49:08

favours because they know that's what's going

49:10

to make sure that the bills are

49:13

going to get paid this month. The

49:15

kids' school uniforms are going to be

49:17

paid for. They're essentially... taking one for

49:19

the team, the team being them and

49:22

their kids. And then there are married

49:24

women who recognize the power that they

49:26

hold within the institution and infrastructure of

49:29

marriage, and this is how I would

49:31

behave if I was a married woman,

49:33

where I want

49:35

to go on vacation to X,

49:37

Y, Z. So I'm not going

49:40

to have sex with him for

49:42

a while. And when I know

49:44

that I want to ask him,

49:46

or pose the idea of this

49:48

thing that I really want us

49:51

to do, I know that if

49:53

I bring a tear out, he's

49:55

likely to say yes. Or if

49:57

I engage sexually with him, if

49:59

I have sex with him, if

50:01

I do the thing he likes,

50:04

we're getting closer to the thing

50:06

that I want to do. So

50:08

I'm using my sexualityality. I can

50:10

and because it's a power and

50:12

because I know that it's going

50:14

to reap the result I want.

50:17

Also, off the back of that

50:19

question, sex is a huge cornerstone

50:21

theme when we talk about marriage,

50:23

so much so that within religion,

50:25

especially Christianity, virginity is such a

50:28

huge concept. There is an emphasis

50:30

that's placed on sex, especially on

50:32

the woman's body. Even culturally speaking.

50:34

where I'm from in Nigeria, we

50:36

have something called a bride price.

50:38

Oh, yes. And, you know, it's

50:41

icky to talk about on the

50:43

surface because bride price, that's interesting.

50:45

Like, you're essentially, for lack of

50:47

better wording, you're offering the bride's

50:49

family a bunch of assets and

50:51

gifts in exchange for their daughter,

50:54

it's also a gesture of me

50:56

saying, I present you these

50:58

gifts as a way to express

51:00

that I intend to take your

51:02

daughter seriously, I intend to treat

51:04

her well, please receive these gifts

51:06

as a gesture of my intention

51:08

of seriousness, and also partially as

51:10

a way to kind of compensate

51:12

for the resources of human labour

51:14

they're about to lose by losing

51:17

their daughter. It's a thankless job

51:19

most of the time. For a

51:21

lot of women, they're enslaved, and

51:23

they're unhappy, and that sounds really

51:25

extreme to say. That's pretty bold.

51:27

It's bold to say, but well,

51:29

we have to recognise that we're

51:31

having this conversation and we're discussing

51:33

marriage largely through the lens and

51:35

lived experience of being Westerners. You

51:37

know, there are parts of the

51:39

world, including Nigeria, where Nigeria is

51:41

amongst the countries with the highest

51:43

domestic violence race. Intimate partner violence

51:45

is even worse in Nigeria. is

51:47

super normalized for men to beat

51:49

their wives and you know sometimes

51:51

men will complain to the pastor

51:53

or to complain to the wife's

51:56

family like she's not having enough

51:58

sex with me right she's not

52:00

enough. I'm not attracted to her.

52:02

A lot of this emphasis is

52:04

placed on the woman sexually servicing

52:07

the man. So again, when we

52:09

bring this back to my comment

52:11

I made about marriage and sex

52:13

work being tired, if we could

52:15

all like relax and shed our

52:17

stigma towards sex work, we can

52:19

focus on what the machinations of

52:21

marriage actually looked like, how women

52:23

are treated in marriage. And why,

52:26

if we're going to refer to

52:28

marriage as sex work, what we

52:30

can do to make it safer

52:32

for women? Because whether we agree

52:34

or disagree on marriage and sex

52:36

work being linked, there is still

52:38

an expectation of labour that's placed

52:40

on women, and women still, for

52:42

the most part, have to use

52:45

sex as a way to navigate

52:47

their marriages. So you know what's

52:49

so interesting is I think I

52:51

can talk to you for days

52:53

on each one of these topics

52:55

and this one in particular is

52:57

near and dear to my heart

52:59

because I've studied I'm married I've

53:01

studied marriage for quite some time

53:04

and a lot of what you're

53:06

saying will be abrasive to many

53:08

people but you know what I

53:10

agree with a large percentage of

53:12

it some of it I don't.

53:14

But the large percentage of it,

53:16

I do. I think that marriage

53:18

is an institution that needs to

53:20

be, that must be transformed. And

53:23

to your point of, well, I

53:25

mean, you called it women enslaved.

53:27

I mean, pretty much that's what

53:29

you said marriage is. I would

53:31

argue that for a large percentage,

53:33

I've done a large percentage of

53:35

marriage, has low satisfaction. And there's

53:37

lots of nefarious things happening in

53:39

those marriages. But then there's also

53:42

a percentage of marriage, 20% right?

53:44

This is according to research by

53:46

Elafinkle out of the states, but

53:48

20% of marriages actually have a

53:50

higher satisfaction rate than the history

53:52

of all marriages since marriage has

53:54

been tracked. And I think that

53:56

what we need to do is

53:58

we need to look more cognitively

54:01

intelligently. what's happening in that 20%

54:03

of marriages. And also, what's happening

54:05

in these 80% of marriages, and

54:07

we need to do away with

54:09

this. One of the things that

54:11

I advocate for, and I get

54:13

pushed back on, is I think

54:15

that marriage should be much, much

54:17

harder to enter, and much, much

54:20

easier to exit. Right?

54:22

So what I mean by that is,

54:24

in order to be married, shouldn't just

54:26

simply be, in many places in the

54:28

world, you could literally pay a small

54:31

fee. Yes. Sign your name. Done. Done.

54:33

You could be coerced, etc. Right? You

54:35

go to Vegas, do it, and drive

54:37

the room. You know what I mean?

54:40

Whereas if you want to exit that

54:42

marriage in most areas around the world,

54:44

it's six months to two years. And

54:46

it's costly. It's costly. There's all types

54:49

of violence happening within your course to

54:51

stay and etc. So I think what

54:53

we need to do is we need

54:55

to make it much harder. to enter.

54:58

It needs to be rigorous to enter

55:00

because I think going to economics is

55:02

that if it's harder than we place

55:04

more value and more rigor in determining

55:07

whether or not this is something that

55:09

we want to do. I

55:13

need to come clean and tell

55:15

you about the love affair I've

55:17

been having these last two years.

55:19

But before you start thinking that

55:21

I'm disloyal, don't worry, my wife

55:23

knows everything. Because even Jill can't

55:26

ignore how truly, madly, deeply in

55:28

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56:20

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56:22

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56:24

else's. This is where my show

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57:10

Let's talk about this subject. This

57:13

is one where I've actually written

57:15

about this one. This is high

57:17

purgamy. Yes. Okay. So it's interesting

57:19

because, you know, we were tracking.

57:21

the mentions of hypergamy since 2004

57:24

on Google, and it just looks

57:26

like a ski slope, you know,

57:28

going up. Lots of people are

57:30

interested in hypergamy. So how would

57:32

you define hypergamy and how does

57:34

it play a role in how

57:37

we date? So the basic definition

57:39

of hypergomy is dating upwards. So

57:41

dating someone who has more resources

57:43

than you and this largely pertains

57:45

towards the perspective of the woman

57:48

being the one who's dating upwards.

57:50

And I wouldn't be surprised if

57:52

the data you saw the rise

57:54

in hypergomy being searched for as

57:56

a term post-pandemic or during the

57:59

pandemic. Yes, yes. so? The reason

58:01

why I think is number one,

58:03

like economic change for everybody. Number

58:05

two, we're all at home and

58:07

we're watching people's lives. We're now

58:10

seeing where people live and how

58:12

they're living. We're now seeing what

58:14

kind of bedding they use. They're

58:16

telling us everything because we're all

58:18

at home and bored and overnight

58:21

everyone's become a content creator. So

58:23

we're now seeing how rich people

58:25

are living. We're now seeing people

58:27

romanticizing their marriages. We're now seeing

58:29

the birth of the rise of

58:31

the Tradwife content. We're now seeing

58:34

people making banana bread in designer

58:36

kitchenware. We're like, wow, that looks

58:38

really nice. I want a bit

58:40

of that. This is quiet luxury.

58:42

At what point does hypergamous dating

58:45

become men, you know, dating in

58:47

a hypergamous way? Let's say at

58:49

the moment, you know, 20,000 women

58:51

out of 100,000 are earning men

58:53

and within the next 20 years

58:56

it's now 70,000 women out earning

58:58

men. Well, the reality is like

59:00

there are still going to be

59:02

men who will make more money

59:04

and we're only speaking for this

59:07

portion of the world we're in.

59:09

Right. This is true. So I

59:11

think for me it's like no

59:13

matter how much this conversation of

59:15

hypergamy evolves or no matter how

59:17

much women earn, We should

59:20

still aim higher and higher and higher

59:22

for ourselves. Your baseline needs to be

59:24

you don't need men for anything. There's

59:26

a recent conversation I've been having with

59:29

women where off

59:31

the back of the rise of what

59:34

is now going to be the next

59:36

thing now the for-be movement you might

59:38

have seen conversations bubbling to the surface

59:40

about. Yes. Something that started in Korea.

59:43

The for-be movement essentially is a movement

59:45

that was radically created by women who

59:47

want to completely abstain and divest from

59:49

anything to do with men in a

59:52

more extreme manner because of the rising

59:54

femicide race, the extreme misogyny, so much

59:56

so that feminist is a dirty word

59:58

in Korea and can... violence

1:00:00

being enacted upon you as a

1:00:02

woman. And so now that Trump

1:00:04

has been voted into presidency again,

1:00:06

I started seeing conversations from American

1:00:09

and Western women discussing, we need

1:00:11

to have our own 4B movement.

1:00:13

And I was like, there's never

1:00:15

going to be a 4B movement

1:00:17

in the West because most women

1:00:19

are two male-centered and I think

1:00:21

for a lot of women, they...

1:00:23

they can't envision a life without

1:00:25

men. So I was recently talking

1:00:27

about if you really truly are

1:00:29

independent as a woman, you shouldn't

1:00:31

even be sleeping with men on

1:00:33

the excuse of what I'm going

1:00:35

to sleep with him and just

1:00:37

get my orgasms from him and

1:00:39

send him away. Because it's the

1:00:41

idea of you're still needing men.

1:00:43

You can make your own orgasms

1:00:45

if you really wanted to or

1:00:47

if you really had that relationship

1:00:49

with your body. I don't like

1:00:51

the way you spoke that you

1:00:53

spoke to me on Tuesday. But

1:00:55

it's about if a man wants

1:00:57

to be in my life, he

1:00:59

needs to really make my life

1:01:01

easier and he needs to have

1:01:03

an exceptional role he's playing or

1:01:05

else he's not a need, he's

1:01:07

a want. I push, I want

1:01:09

him. All right, you said a

1:01:11

few things in there that I

1:01:13

want to come back to, let's

1:01:15

start with 4B, 4B movement because

1:01:17

this is something that I've been

1:01:19

tracking for quite some time too.

1:01:21

And what I find interesting, and

1:01:23

this is once again, like, I'm

1:01:25

like out of like out of

1:01:27

agree with you, I'm agree with

1:01:29

you again, I think what happened,

1:01:31

and this is Trump, and this

1:01:33

is Tiktak, this is like the

1:01:35

downside of Tiktak, is that there

1:01:37

was this assumption that every woman

1:01:39

in Korea was 4B, right? No

1:01:41

dating, no men, no sex, no

1:01:43

kids, 4B, 4B. Now, I was

1:01:45

a matchmaker forever. One of my

1:01:47

good friends runs one of the

1:01:49

largest matchmaking agencies in Korea. And

1:01:51

do you know what the demand

1:01:53

is for services? You would think

1:01:55

for a B movement. Nobody goes

1:01:57

to her service. Everyone, the demand

1:01:59

for and date coaches

1:02:02

and the demand on dating apps

1:02:04

in Korea through the roof through

1:02:06

the roof higher than it's ever

1:02:09

been most women and most men

1:02:11

in Korea they're seeking each other

1:02:13

Right? But 4B was this small,

1:02:16

it was a very small movement

1:02:18

and a bunch of folks really

1:02:20

on TikTok, jumped on it and

1:02:23

said, this is what they're doing,

1:02:25

this is what we should be

1:02:27

doing. But it goes back to

1:02:29

your point. Your point is you

1:02:32

said, okay, it's because women, most

1:02:34

women want men in their lives.

1:02:36

And I agree with this, I

1:02:39

think that we want each other.

1:02:41

Like I always say, marriage is

1:02:43

not for everyone, but I don't

1:02:46

think we were built to do

1:02:48

life alone. It is about having

1:02:50

partnership in emotional intimacy, which doesn't

1:02:53

mean you need to have the

1:02:55

physical, sexual intimacy as well, but

1:02:57

the physical, but a healthy physical

1:03:00

and sexual intimacy. just adds, it

1:03:02

elevates the emotional intimacy unit. For

1:03:04

4B, okay, I'm with you. But

1:03:07

on that note, you talked about

1:03:09

Trump. I'm American, right? I see

1:03:11

what's happened. For me, the perception

1:03:14

is that there's a large level

1:03:16

of fear around a woman's autonomy

1:03:18

as a result of the administration.

1:03:20

So how do you believe that

1:03:23

that then impacts relationships? as a

1:03:25

result, because it's not just the

1:03:27

United States, you're seeing this in

1:03:30

my opinion in Poland, you're seeing

1:03:32

it in Hungary, you saw it

1:03:34

in Korea, right? You see administrations

1:03:37

come in and the overall perception

1:03:39

is that a woman's autonomy as

1:03:41

a result of that administration is

1:03:44

going to be less than it

1:03:46

was previously. So what's your perspective

1:03:48

on, okay, what should, as a

1:03:51

woman, how do you navigate that?

1:03:53

What's interesting about that poor

1:03:56

is that as we see

1:03:58

an increase of infrastructures

1:04:01

that reduce the autonomy women have

1:04:03

over their bodies. On an immediate

1:04:05

social level we see that reflected

1:04:08

in the men around us. So

1:04:10

there's a rise in red pill

1:04:12

content. These are all happening at

1:04:15

the same time as each other

1:04:17

and that's not a coincidence and

1:04:20

it's not a coincidence as well

1:04:22

that we're seeing a rise in

1:04:24

tradwife content being pushed to the

1:04:27

forefront. So we're seeing red pill

1:04:29

content which is extreme misogyny. We're

1:04:31

seeing the rise of tradwife content

1:04:34

which supports the ideas that these

1:04:36

misogynistic men want to see, which

1:04:38

is a world where women are

1:04:41

docile, subservient, and quiet. We're seeing

1:04:43

a rise in politics

1:04:46

that support the idea that women shouldn't have

1:04:48

full autonomy over their bodies. And so it

1:04:50

leaves women with the question of, especially American

1:04:52

women, it's now like, okay, well, if I

1:04:55

sleep with someone and I can't have an

1:04:57

abortion, I guess I'm going to have to

1:04:59

be more picky about them sleeping with them,

1:05:01

which puts women in more danger because we

1:05:03

will see a rise in rape statistics. At

1:05:08

the same time, for those of

1:05:10

us who live in countries like

1:05:12

the UK at the moment where

1:05:14

we don't have those strict laws

1:05:16

about abortion at the moment, even

1:05:18

though we're not affected by what's

1:05:20

happening in the US, the general

1:05:23

attitude towards men has affected us

1:05:25

here too where we're also looking

1:05:27

at men differently because Trump didn't

1:05:29

get there by himself. men voted

1:05:31

for him but there were also

1:05:33

women who voted for Trump too

1:05:35

and those women a lot of

1:05:37

them are married to the men

1:05:39

who voted for Trump and a

1:05:42

lot of women are so male-centered

1:05:44

that they will choose men before

1:05:46

they choose solidarity with other women

1:05:48

so a lot of times when

1:05:50

we see this current divide we're

1:05:52

living through the onus is placed

1:05:54

on women to just like why

1:05:56

is there a gender war we

1:05:59

need to just be more accepting

1:06:01

and even the red people like

1:06:03

their ultimate cause here is that

1:06:05

they just want women to sleep

1:06:07

with them and love them and

1:06:09

accept them as they are and

1:06:11

allow them to exert misogyny on

1:06:13

women and we're saying we don't

1:06:15

want to do that we don't

1:06:18

like you you're insufferable and you

1:06:20

stink and so there comes a

1:06:22

rise in creators like myself who

1:06:24

are bubbling closer and closer to

1:06:26

the cultural forefront because there is

1:06:28

an appetite for ideas that encourage

1:06:30

women. to divest from men as

1:06:32

the center of your world and

1:06:35

replace that with yourself. Because I

1:06:37

get a lot of pushback from

1:06:39

men who hate my ideas. Somebody

1:06:41

must have hurt you. It's this

1:06:43

whole idea. You know, a woman

1:06:45

has to have been hurt to

1:06:47

have high standards. It's the idea

1:06:49

behind it. Okay. So then I

1:06:51

have to ask if it's too

1:06:54

private, just say Paul. Fast forward.

1:06:56

Paul read the room. Yeah. Stop

1:06:58

that. But so you don't need,

1:07:00

you don't need to have sex

1:07:02

with men. And I know that

1:07:04

you mentioned in the past, you

1:07:06

said that you are asexual. Yes,

1:07:08

I'll describe myself as gray asexual.

1:07:11

Okay. And okay. I'm with you.

1:07:13

If you could explain what gray

1:07:15

asexualist for everyone. So. Within my

1:07:17

definition of gray sexual, I will

1:07:19

first explain what asexual is because

1:07:21

a lot of people are more

1:07:23

familiar with that term and I

1:07:25

think there's a lot of preconceptions.

1:07:28

Asexual essentially describes a person who

1:07:30

doesn't feel romantic or sexual attraction

1:07:32

towards other people. They're just not

1:07:34

somebody who is necessarily driven by

1:07:36

their sexual urges or feels inclined

1:07:38

to act on them and at

1:07:40

the same time they still crave

1:07:42

closeness with other people. They still

1:07:44

are in community with others. They're

1:07:47

capable of loving and they navigate

1:07:49

intimacy differently. So maybe that for

1:07:51

some asexual people, they feel closeness

1:07:53

to their partner when they're holding

1:07:55

hands or maybe like a really

1:07:57

tight hug, but they just don't

1:07:59

feel inclined. It doesn't mean

1:08:01

that they're broken or mentally ill. They

1:08:04

just feel like they need to have

1:08:06

sex. Now where gray asexual comes in

1:08:08

because sexuality is on a spectrum and

1:08:10

the gray part of asexuality which is

1:08:12

where I sit on the spectrum is

1:08:14

I can go another 10 years right

1:08:17

now without having sex with a man

1:08:19

and not feel like I've lost out

1:08:21

on anything. It doesn't mean that I

1:08:23

don't experience sexual attraction to men. It

1:08:25

doesn't mean that I haven't experienced romantic

1:08:27

attraction to men. In fact, the last

1:08:30

time I slept with a man was

1:08:32

2021 and that was nice while it

1:08:34

lasted, but... For

1:08:36

me, I'm not somebody who

1:08:38

feels impulse driven by my

1:08:40

sexual urges. I have a

1:08:42

loss. I would say it's

1:08:44

like having the self-restraint of

1:08:46

a sense when it comes

1:08:48

to sex. Whereas people who

1:08:50

are not a sexual at

1:08:53

all and are probably more

1:08:55

on the casual sex side

1:08:57

of things. And

1:08:59

this is not an insult when I

1:09:01

say it, but in terms of describing

1:09:03

that polarity between self-restraint of a sense,

1:09:05

say, the more casual sex havers, those

1:09:08

who are more impulsively driven by their

1:09:10

sexual urges, probably self-restraint of a five-year-old.

1:09:12

And what I mean by that is

1:09:14

if you think of the example of

1:09:16

Do you remember in the pandemic when

1:09:19

parents would put their phone, like they'll

1:09:21

place their phone somewhere and they'll bring

1:09:23

their toddler or their young child into

1:09:25

the room and they'll say, I'm going

1:09:27

to leave the room and I'm going

1:09:30

to leave this bag of sweets here,

1:09:32

I don't touch the sweets, okay? Come

1:09:34

on, the sweets of an open hand.

1:09:36

because the child hasn't gone herself for

1:09:38

strength. Now, I liken that to the

1:09:41

people, especially women, who they come across

1:09:43

a guy they're attracted to and they

1:09:45

immediately feel the need to have sex

1:09:47

with that guy. I can't control it.

1:09:49

I just really like it. I'm the

1:09:52

complete opposite, where you can leave that

1:09:54

bag of seats in the room and

1:09:56

you come back and I didn't even

1:09:58

touch the back. I don't want to

1:10:00

be pissed off at 8am because you

1:10:02

haven't messaged me. You know? And I

1:10:05

think that becomes a thing after you

1:10:07

started a thing after you started sleeping

1:10:09

after you started sleeping after you started

1:10:11

sleeping with someone after you started sleeping

1:10:13

with someone, people and there's some people

1:10:16

that would argue you shouldn't and you

1:10:18

should we all develop expectations of people

1:10:20

and once we slept with them if

1:10:22

that expectation is a good morning text

1:10:24

right or if the expectation is there's

1:10:27

some attachment there is some attachment Science

1:10:29

shows that intimacy triggers the release of

1:10:31

oxytocin, often called the bonding hormone, which

1:10:33

can create emotional attachment and expectations even

1:10:35

when we don't intend it. This is

1:10:38

why physical connection often leads to desires

1:10:40

for emotional validation, like a good morning

1:10:42

text or deeper commitment. Understanding this helps

1:10:44

us approach intimacy with honesty, about our

1:10:46

needs, boundaries, and the expectations it may

1:10:49

bring. When we align intimacy with clear

1:10:51

communication and mutual understanding, we create a

1:10:53

space for connection that respects both parties,

1:10:55

their boundaries and needs. Intimacy isn't just

1:10:57

physical. It's the way we navigate the

1:11:00

expectations it inevitably brings. as

1:11:02

of recent there's a lot

1:11:04

of conversation around demisexuality right

1:11:06

which is which is all

1:11:08

there is emotional connection and

1:11:10

you need that and then

1:11:12

you go all the way

1:11:14

to our sexual yeah which

1:11:17

is like hey casual sexual

1:11:19

Let's just do it. You

1:11:21

know, like the whole... And

1:11:23

I think what's beautiful is

1:11:25

for everyone to understand, you

1:11:27

know what, we're all on

1:11:29

the scale somewhere. I'm sorry,

1:11:31

it doesn't mean that you're

1:11:33

all just allosexual, and if

1:11:35

you're not allosexual, it doesn't

1:11:37

mean something is wrong with

1:11:40

you. And I think that's

1:11:42

the key message, you know,

1:11:44

and so I love that

1:11:46

you're talking about that. And

1:11:48

so this is where what

1:11:50

I have loved about you

1:11:52

coming here is it's pushed

1:11:54

me into more research around

1:11:56

what is a dominatrix etc.

1:11:58

But I always associated

1:12:01

being a dominatrix with sex

1:12:03

or BDSM with with sex

1:12:05

yeah but you haven't had

1:12:08

sex in four years right

1:12:10

so and so if you

1:12:12

can explain what what is

1:12:14

what is BDSM what what

1:12:16

what and what is what

1:12:18

is being a dominatrix what

1:12:21

does that mean So BDSM

1:12:23

is all about exploring power

1:12:25

dynamics between yourself and consenting

1:12:27

partners. Consent is the overarching

1:12:29

keyword in all of this.

1:12:31

Everything is entirely consensual and

1:12:34

it's about exploring Kink in

1:12:36

a way that feels safe.

1:12:38

So what a lot of

1:12:40

people will commonly associate with

1:12:42

BDSM is like latex and

1:12:44

whips and maybe even catwoman

1:12:46

because she is like the

1:12:49

more culturally familiar idea of a

1:12:51

dominant woman with her whip and

1:12:54

her leather and the way that

1:12:56

she pounces on men and makes

1:12:58

them do what she says. Can

1:13:00

I say this is truth truthfully

1:13:02

this is what I always pictured.

1:13:05

I pictured latex. I pictured a

1:13:07

woman with a whip cat woman.

1:13:09

A man with like a like

1:13:11

a nozzle on on all fours.

1:13:13

That's the case a lot of

1:13:16

time. Like, he's eating

1:13:18

dog food, he's eating dog food.

1:13:20

He's being whipped while he's eating

1:13:22

dog food. And then there's sex.

1:13:25

And then like that's how I've

1:13:28

always, but this is not the

1:13:30

case. So what's interesting, especially with

1:13:32

sex coming into the conversation of

1:13:34

dominatrix, is we don't have sex

1:13:36

with the men. If it's what

1:13:38

we do, it's almost like, how

1:13:40

do I phrase it? So there's

1:13:43

such a thing as one of

1:13:45

the components of dominating a man,

1:13:47

something called chastity, which is, there's

1:13:49

a thing called a chastity cage,

1:13:51

and it's a little like apparatus.

1:13:53

and the man can wear it

1:13:55

on his penis and it's locked

1:13:57

so the woman the key. So

1:14:00

its penis is quite literally locked.

1:14:02

So there's only so many things

1:14:04

you can do with your penis

1:14:06

if it's lots, which is very

1:14:08

few things. I mean, occasionally he's

1:14:10

allowed to unlock it with the

1:14:12

woman's consent to just like clean

1:14:14

himself, but it has to be

1:14:17

locked. And that's for a duration

1:14:19

of time that's agreed upon by

1:14:21

him and the mistress. And what

1:14:23

happens is if she decides to

1:14:25

have sex with him, When

1:14:29

you think about like a man

1:14:31

being aroused but his penis is

1:14:33

locked, the arousal can't, it can't,

1:14:35

it can't, it can't manifest physically,

1:14:37

he can't physically have a hard

1:14:40

on because his dig is locked,

1:14:42

but mentally there is so much

1:14:44

going on for him, like it's

1:14:46

like a, it's like a very

1:14:48

heightened fall of edging. almost. Edging.

1:14:50

Yes, so edging as in like

1:14:52

when you're having sex with someone

1:14:54

in a non- BDSM context like

1:14:56

let's talk about in a vanilla

1:14:58

way briefly if you're edging someone

1:15:00

it's normally the idea of like

1:15:02

when the person's closed having an

1:15:04

orgasm you stop so that the

1:15:06

sex can last longer. But in

1:15:08

BDSM especially in the context of

1:15:10

a dominatrix and her submissive man

1:15:12

edging him is while he's locked

1:15:14

in chastity you're making him do

1:15:16

things that are of service to

1:15:19

you ever that's it can range

1:15:21

from you making him carry out

1:15:23

house chores and him being obedient

1:15:25

and you rewarding him with a

1:15:27

pattern head of saying good boy

1:15:29

making him kiss your feet instructing

1:15:31

him to pleasure you orally and

1:15:33

again all while he's locked. So

1:15:35

he's psychologically in a place where

1:15:37

he's off service to you and

1:15:39

he's also very excited. And so

1:15:41

when you decide that you're going

1:15:43

to unlock the cage and he's

1:15:45

allowed to have an actual full

1:15:47

on hard on, you're probably not

1:15:49

able to even have actual sex

1:15:51

with him. All he sees is

1:15:53

just like stroke your finger across

1:15:55

and he's going to nut because

1:15:58

he's so... Yeah, so like psychologically

1:16:00

charged him. All right, but so

1:16:02

and that's in the of sex,

1:16:04

but you're saying in most scenarios,

1:16:06

you don't have sex. So there's

1:16:08

a dominate, there's a dominatrix, which

1:16:10

is typically a woman. Yes. And

1:16:12

then a submissive. Typically a man.

1:16:14

Typically a man. How does the

1:16:16

dominatrix and submissive even connect? Like

1:16:18

how do you find each other?

1:16:20

Are there parties, apps? So there

1:16:22

are such a thing as play

1:16:24

parties which are parties that are

1:16:26

put on for people in the

1:16:28

King community and everybody in that

1:16:30

room is somewhat involved in King.

1:16:32

So there are play parties where

1:16:34

it's specifically femdong which is female

1:16:37

dominance so it's femdong themed so

1:16:39

the women are all dominatrixes in

1:16:41

the room and all the men

1:16:43

are assumed to be submissive and

1:16:45

so you can kind of network

1:16:47

and maybe engage in some consensual

1:16:49

like leash play or footplay now

1:16:51

even in non BDSen environments I'm

1:16:53

talking like even in just like

1:16:55

the vanilla world There are men

1:16:57

who are still submissive but because

1:16:59

the context of their atmosphere doesn't

1:17:01

require them to shop a submissive

1:17:03

there are more subtle signs you

1:17:05

can tell. For example sometimes from

1:17:07

on the train and maybe like

1:17:09

I have one leg crossed over

1:17:11

the other. and I'm like twirling

1:17:13

my shoe. What if it's in

1:17:15

the summer and that's like sandal

1:17:18

season so your toes are visible?

1:17:20

You're like twirling your toes while

1:17:22

your foot is crossed over the

1:17:24

other foot and a man in

1:17:26

front of you. If I notice

1:17:28

he keeps on looking at my

1:17:30

feet occasionally, like to test see

1:17:32

if he's submissive, I might like

1:17:34

hold eye contact with him briefly

1:17:36

and then look at my feet

1:17:38

and tell my feet again and

1:17:40

see if he goes red or

1:17:42

see if he... So being submissive

1:17:44

then, or in being a dominatrix,

1:17:46

you're saying it's a part of

1:17:48

our psychology, it's okay, so it's

1:17:50

like, so it's a part of

1:17:52

our psychology, but it's a, is

1:17:54

it a behavior that's learned as

1:17:57

well? Yes, I know. The reason

1:17:59

I say yes, I know is

1:18:01

because when we speak about the

1:18:03

yes. of my answer. As a

1:18:05

structure between men and women, men

1:18:07

are supposed to be of service

1:18:09

to women and men thrive when

1:18:11

they are. assigned

1:18:13

tasks by women and they

1:18:15

are given the validation of

1:18:17

good boy or given the

1:18:19

validation of feeling like they

1:18:21

have done something for a

1:18:23

woman and this isn't even

1:18:25

just talking sexually it's just

1:18:27

the idea of feeling useful.

1:18:29

I noticed that across men

1:18:31

as a group but then

1:18:33

when I say no it's

1:18:36

not entirely a preset is

1:18:38

because there are some men

1:18:40

who grew up with very

1:18:43

dominant mothers and

1:18:46

It's something that they just look

1:18:48

for in women. They're just drawn

1:18:50

to it. Some men when I

1:18:53

asked them, how did you realize

1:18:55

you were submissive? Some of them

1:18:57

will say to me when they

1:18:59

were on the playground and they

1:19:01

were like five, they used to

1:19:03

get bullied by girls and they

1:19:05

secretly really liked being bullied by

1:19:07

girls. And now as a man

1:19:09

in his 30s, he just really

1:19:11

likes mean women. He likes women

1:19:13

who make it feel like he's

1:19:16

not good enough. There are extremes

1:19:18

to feel like he's not good

1:19:20

enough. who enjoy humiliation and degradation

1:19:22

to a place where they like

1:19:24

being weed on or they like

1:19:26

being spat on by various women,

1:19:28

they like women taking their tampons

1:19:30

out and throwing it on them.

1:19:32

And this sounds quite gross because

1:19:34

it is gross but they like

1:19:36

that they like that it's gross.

1:19:39

They like the idea that it's

1:19:41

so humiliating that like a woman

1:19:43

would treat them as a trash

1:19:45

can. And that's the masochism piece.

1:19:47

Yes. So you love, because you

1:19:49

know quite honestly, I didn't even

1:19:51

know what the BDSM stood for,

1:19:53

right? It's bondage, domination, discipline, S

1:19:55

being submission, but also sadist. Yes.

1:19:57

you like to exert the pain,

1:19:59

if you will, and then the

1:20:01

masochism, the M, where you like

1:20:04

to receive it. And that is

1:20:06

pain, I mean, to get hit

1:20:08

with a coupon. Or it's pain

1:20:10

to be told that that's why

1:20:12

I'd never loved you, that there

1:20:14

are some men who really love

1:20:16

to be verbally humiliated. What I

1:20:18

experience a lot, like the kind

1:20:20

of men who I attract. are

1:20:23

white men who specifically want to be

1:20:25

verbally humiliated and dominated by a black

1:20:28

woman who demands reparations from them. I

1:20:30

attract white men who want to be

1:20:32

told that they are inferior to black

1:20:34

women and that no matter how hard

1:20:37

they try to climb the power structure

1:20:39

they will always be powerless and they're

1:20:41

never going to get the validation they

1:20:44

want it from their dad. Like they

1:20:46

really love when I verbally tear them

1:20:48

apart. And so when you,

1:20:50

okay, let's break this down. Everyone

1:20:53

is choose me because I need

1:20:55

to go into detail on this.

1:20:57

Please, please, if I could. Is,

1:20:59

is so. You

1:21:01

connect at parties. I'm sorry, we call

1:21:04

them. Play parties. Some of them they

1:21:06

find me online. They find you online.

1:21:08

Because especially with my podcast, there's a

1:21:11

guy who recently found me from my

1:21:13

podcast. And even though my podcast isn't

1:21:15

necessarily a dominatrix podcast, the way I

1:21:17

talk about men. has an undertone of

1:21:20

a dominant woman. Okay. So they know

1:21:22

how just like how I was like

1:21:24

making the example of if you're on

1:21:26

a train and you tell your feet

1:21:29

and a guy's looking you can tell

1:21:31

you submissive. Men can also identify a

1:21:33

dominant woman without her saying anything. Okay.

1:21:35

Just by her demeanor. So they know

1:21:38

this and then they reach out to

1:21:40

you or they're at the play party.

1:21:42

So in order just to communicate with

1:21:45

you, what do they do? So if

1:21:47

it's online, for example, if they meet

1:21:49

me on Twitter, because I have a

1:21:51

Twitter account for my dominatrix persona, if

1:21:54

they meet me on Twitter, they have

1:21:56

to pay a 100 pound tribute. an

1:21:58

introduction fee for them to have the

1:22:00

permission to introduce themselves to me. And

1:22:03

that tribute fee doesn't grant them anything.

1:22:05

They're not entitled to my time. It's

1:22:07

just a gesture of them honouring the

1:22:09

opportunity to say, hello to me, this

1:22:12

is who I am, goddess, and I

1:22:14

find you beautiful and I would like

1:22:16

to serve you, 100 pounds. 100 pounds.

1:22:18

Okay, and you are goddess, goddess, Gina,

1:22:21

goddess, Gina. Yes. Okay, so you, and

1:22:23

you created that, created that, yes. So

1:22:25

this is a persona, but this is

1:22:28

you as well. It's me as well.

1:22:30

Okay, all right. So your goddess, Gina,

1:22:32

to them, they reach out, they pay

1:22:34

a tribute fee, 100 pounds, then they're

1:22:37

able to send you a message. They

1:22:39

all send me a message and they

1:22:41

talk about how beautiful they find me

1:22:43

and how powerful they find me and

1:22:46

for some of these men it doesn't

1:22:48

even get to a place where we

1:22:50

discuss them wanting to maybe like have

1:22:52

a session in a dungeon. So a

1:22:55

session is where you are in an

1:22:57

environment, it could be a dungeon, it

1:22:59

could be maybe it's a hotel, but

1:23:02

largely for the most part, it's a

1:23:04

dungeon because that's where all the equipment

1:23:06

and the tools are. You go to

1:23:08

a dungeon together and you can have

1:23:11

a session where you carry out the

1:23:13

kinks, whether it's flogging or footwear ship

1:23:15

or making them, kneel down and face

1:23:17

the wall and you ignore them. There

1:23:20

are men who pay you just ignore

1:23:22

them. And so... With me, what I

1:23:24

find is that I attract a lot

1:23:26

of men who want to be financially

1:23:29

dominated. So financial domination is another strand

1:23:31

of fem-dom, where men enjoy being told

1:23:33

what to do with their money by

1:23:36

women they find powerful. and so it

1:23:38

requires a lot of creativity on the

1:23:40

woman's part to navigate financial domination because

1:23:42

if you tell a man give me

1:23:45

500 pounds now yeah I mean he

1:23:47

probably will do it if he's already

1:23:49

like in that space of the kink

1:23:51

and he wants to but if you

1:23:54

create a framework or like a task

1:23:56

that surrounds him giving you the 500

1:23:58

pounds we're in the play of it.

1:24:00

This is where it becomes fun for

1:24:03

both people. So recently, that was a

1:24:05

guy who... I made him

1:24:07

write an essay about how amazing I

1:24:09

am and I charged him 100 pounds

1:24:12

to submit the essay to me but

1:24:14

there was also a 250 pound penalty

1:24:16

fee if he submitted the essay late

1:24:18

and then for the second draft with

1:24:21

all the updated amendments he still submitted

1:24:23

that late for one other reasons charged

1:24:25

him the penalty and he also had

1:24:28

to pay the submission fee. So before

1:24:30

you know I've made like six ten

1:24:32

hundred pounds of this essay And so

1:24:34

he has literally sent you the money.

1:24:37

It's just, what's your money? Oh, absolutely.

1:24:39

And I don't owe him sex. He's

1:24:41

not going to stalk me and kill

1:24:43

me for 700 pounds. And the reason

1:24:46

why I'm confident in that is because

1:24:48

this is a man who he's got

1:24:50

a lot of money. And men like

1:24:52

this who send women like me money,

1:24:55

I'm not the only one they're sending

1:24:57

money to. This is a cake of

1:24:59

theirs. So it just so happens that

1:25:01

I have his letter. I

1:25:06

have, I have, I have,

1:25:08

I have as a letter

1:25:11

here. He's a very articulate

1:25:13

person. Very educated. Very educated.

1:25:16

I mean, obviously we can't

1:25:18

disclose his identity. No, there's

1:25:21

nothing identifiable about him in

1:25:23

the essay. But actually, can

1:25:25

I read this? Please. Just

1:25:28

a couple pieces. Of course.

1:25:30

This is so fascinating to

1:25:33

me. So he wrote, many

1:25:35

of the sentiments that God

1:25:38

is Gina publicly expresses resonate

1:25:40

with me. As a middle-aged

1:25:43

white male, I am blissfully

1:25:45

aware that I have been

1:25:47

given an unfair advantage in

1:25:50

life. opportunities were offered to

1:25:52

me due to long-established discriminatory

1:25:55

social biases. Right? And I

1:25:57

mean, this is a full

1:26:00

letter. continues, imagining being of

1:26:02

service to his owner is

1:26:05

an obsessive routine for any

1:26:07

submissive. My mind is constantly

1:26:09

drawn into dreaming ways I

1:26:12

can make my owner's life

1:26:14

more comfortable while becoming more

1:26:17

selfless. I find a superior

1:26:19

goddess can extract most from

1:26:22

her submissives by understanding their

1:26:24

mindset in playing on the

1:26:27

weakness and in securities, but

1:26:29

also by establishing an environment

1:26:31

in which her submissives can

1:26:34

thrive and grow. So

1:26:37

you were the owner. Yes. Well

1:26:39

I haven't, so at the time

1:26:41

when he wrote this essay, part

1:26:43

of it was like he was

1:26:46

pitching himself to be owned by

1:26:48

me, so I don't currently own

1:26:50

him. He still has to work

1:26:52

to being owned by me. Okay.

1:26:55

And the idea of ownership, it's

1:26:57

intentional language that is used within

1:26:59

the king's space to imply that

1:27:01

the person who owns the subordinate

1:27:04

is the person who is superior

1:27:06

and even though as he said

1:27:08

by himself he's a white middle-aged

1:27:10

man the idea of him being

1:27:12

owned by a black goddess it

1:27:15

means something to him yes because

1:27:17

he talks about reparations he's very

1:27:19

self-aware about there's a part in

1:27:21

the essay where he mentions that

1:27:24

if he was to have the

1:27:26

chance to even serve me in

1:27:28

person that he would make sure

1:27:30

that he arranges a spar day

1:27:32

for me beforehand and that I

1:27:35

am chauffered to the location of

1:27:37

where he's going to serve me

1:27:39

that it would be such an

1:27:41

honour for him to be able

1:27:44

to just be used by me.

1:27:46

It's very interesting to hear a

1:27:48

man say that. Especially, you know,

1:27:50

he picked his, can I give

1:27:53

them the identity, the name that

1:27:55

he picked? Yes. Okay, because this

1:27:57

is what I, this is, this

1:27:59

is, this is the end. He

1:28:01

says, to this end, I would

1:28:04

pick my super zero identity as

1:28:06

slave tux. the end of the

1:28:08

19th century, the tuxedo has assumed

1:28:10

the dominant position in international men's

1:28:13

fashion, it is a symbol of

1:28:15

success reserved to the elite, but

1:28:17

it is most importantly been used

1:28:19

during colonialism as a tool to

1:28:21

impose a new social hierarchy and

1:28:24

belittle the local populations. I hope

1:28:26

that wearing shackles on a tuxedo.

1:28:28

would help goddess Gina create the

1:28:30

kind of iconic image she is

1:28:33

looking for. There will be no

1:28:35

greater satisfaction than witnessing goddess Gina

1:28:37

accomplishing her life ambitions to establish

1:28:39

her new world order of matriarchy

1:28:42

making a significant impact on women's

1:28:44

lives via a complete power exchange.

1:28:48

So there's so much going

1:28:50

on in there. Yes. What

1:28:52

people don't understand about this

1:28:54

lifestyle is that they think

1:28:56

that the submissive men are

1:28:58

just these like sleazy, unloved,

1:29:00

uneducated, broke men who live

1:29:03

in their mom's basement. There

1:29:05

are men who like this

1:29:07

guy, very educated, very aware

1:29:09

of the world, very privileged,

1:29:11

and they know where they

1:29:13

want to put that privilege

1:29:15

and they understand. how their

1:29:17

power has afforded them the

1:29:20

safety to even want to

1:29:22

engage in this as a

1:29:24

lifestyle. Yes. Like what privilege?

1:29:26

So what blew me away

1:29:28

most of my research about

1:29:30

BDSM was that when studying

1:29:32

people who participate in BDSM

1:29:34

on average they are equal

1:29:36

or greater to the to

1:29:39

the remaining public in openness

1:29:41

traits being being you know

1:29:43

kind yes and safe and

1:29:45

safe so so help me

1:29:47

understand what is he feeling

1:29:49

what's you know what's the

1:29:51

what's what's the what's the

1:29:53

drive to to do this

1:29:56

to do this he's, he's,

1:29:58

he's, it's play with you.

1:30:00

Yeah. Because he doesn't have

1:30:02

you as a dominant for

1:30:04

his entire life. Yes, only

1:30:06

during sessions. Do, so we've

1:30:08

actually never met, but he

1:30:10

sent me in total. over

1:30:14

2,000 pounds, which in the world

1:30:16

of femdom, that's not even that

1:30:18

much money. Is it there are

1:30:21

men? Yeah, there are men who

1:30:23

I know somebody, a fellow dominatrix,

1:30:25

who a man, she's based in

1:30:28

Canada and a man in Germany

1:30:30

sent her 25,000 pounds within the

1:30:32

space of 24 hours. It wasn't

1:30:35

one giant transaction, but over the

1:30:37

space of 24 hours. I

1:30:40

mean, they've never met. This is,

1:30:42

I mean, this is a whole,

1:30:44

it's mind blowing. Yeah, community. Yes.

1:30:46

That I, yeah, had no idea.

1:30:48

So what do you get out

1:30:50

of it? Because I would imagine,

1:30:53

especially because if you love or

1:30:55

find out, I mean, you're getting

1:30:57

paid also. But what is psychologically

1:30:59

and emotionally, what's going on for

1:31:01

you? I enjoy the psychological power

1:31:03

that comes with dominating a man

1:31:05

who is in on it with

1:31:07

me. What I don't enjoy. is

1:31:10

the idea of trying to convert a

1:31:12

man. You know, because sometimes in this

1:31:15

community, or even in the vanilla world,

1:31:17

you'll meet men who describe themselves as

1:31:19

dominant. And there are a lot of

1:31:21

dominant men who target women that they

1:31:24

perceive as dominant, too, and they kind

1:31:26

of want to see if they can

1:31:28

bend that woman into submission for the

1:31:30

satisfaction of it. I don't have received

1:31:33

any satisfaction from changing a man's mind

1:31:35

and like making him submit to me.

1:31:37

I receive satisfaction from men who already...

1:31:39

they are already submissive and it's in

1:31:42

their nature and for me the satisfaction

1:31:44

is well how can I use my

1:31:46

own style of dominance of communication to

1:31:49

get what I want from them right

1:31:51

and this is something that takes experience

1:31:53

with and talent you're basically you're barely

1:31:55

different to an improv comedian because it

1:31:58

is improv what you

1:32:00

are doing. you are doing.

1:32:02

leading a scene, even if you're texting a guy

1:32:04

who's... is texting a guy who's interaction that

1:32:06

me and him had that that him writing

1:32:08

the essay. that me and him that

1:32:11

virtual interaction. writing the essay, that virtual

1:32:13

is a scene just via

1:32:15

DM's is a scene now instructing him.

1:32:17

So even him. So even the

1:32:19

PDF I sent him I

1:32:21

my requirements for the essay. for

1:32:23

the essay was worded, very specific.

1:32:25

specific. And part of that

1:32:28

is the For him. It's like,

1:32:30

oh, she's Oh, me my me my deadline is

1:32:32

Friday, 11 p .m. and and like has to words and