0:00

Hey, this is Scott, and you're listening

0:02

to What Was That Like? New

0:05

episodes with guests telling their amazing

0:07

stories are Every Other Friday, but

0:09

today we have the Every Other

0:11

Tuesday, Tuesday Question. In the podcast

0:13

Facebook group, we have a new

0:15

thought-provoking question every Tuesday, and it

0:17

generates some really interesting and

0:19

sometimes deep discussions. We'd love to

0:21

have you join us. Just go to

0:24

what was that like.com/Facebook. But if you're

0:26

not in that group... We bring it

0:28

to you here in a short episode

0:31

every other Tuesday. We dig into the

0:33

group archives and find one of the

0:35

past Tuesday questions that we've discussed. Then

0:38

Meredith and I answered that question and

0:40

we talk about some of the answers

0:42

that came in from other listeners. And

0:45

in a few days, I'm talking this

0:47

coming Friday, a brand new what was

0:49

that like episode. Let's do it.

0:52

Okay, today's question. What is the

0:54

most difficult thing you've ever

0:56

had to tell someone? Honestly,

0:58

some of these questions have to

1:00

do with death, obviously, because

1:02

that's like the worst news you

1:04

can deliver to someone, and that's

1:06

what mine is as well. I've told

1:08

this story before. My daughter, Brie,

1:11

was married to Fernando. They were

1:13

married for a year and one

1:15

day when he was killed in

1:17

a motorcycle accident. And yeah, getting

1:19

that news was difficult. But... We at

1:22

that point had to make plans to

1:24

go out to Las Vegas because that's

1:26

where it happened. So we were doing

1:28

all of this, but I had to tell

1:30

my mom. And I was not looking

1:32

forward to that, obviously, but even more

1:34

so because she and my dad were

1:37

married for like 56 years and he

1:39

had just passed a year before. She

1:41

had now spent this year living alone.

1:43

I mean, she's near us, we

1:45

see her, and since has been

1:47

remarried, actually, which I've told that

1:50

story already. She knew what it was

1:52

like to lose a husband. And

1:54

in Bree's case, she's still a

1:56

young woman, and it wasn't because

1:58

of a long... out illness. It

2:01

was just sudden gone. So yeah,

2:03

when I told my mom about that,

2:05

it was difficult for her and

2:07

for me to tell her. Yeah. Yeah,

2:09

that was over the phone. Yeah, it

2:11

was. I think she was in Florida at

2:14

that time, but I think it

2:16

was it was late at night and we

2:18

were making so many all

2:20

these different arrangements. It just,

2:22

I don't know, it seemed right at

2:25

the time. In person would have been

2:27

better, I'm sure. Yeah, there's never

2:29

a good time for that. It's

2:31

such a jolt because it's like

2:33

it kicks off the morning process

2:36

and everyone does that differently. You

2:38

know, some people want to go

2:40

into full business mode and just

2:42

get through it and then other

2:44

people really want to, you know, take

2:47

their time and everyone's on

2:49

different timelines. Right. You know, so

2:51

some people, it, you know, air quotes

2:53

hits them later and other people,

2:55

they're affected immediately.

2:57

And so that makes it extra challenging

3:00

too because you don't really line

3:02

up with that person so it

3:04

can make you feel alone even

3:06

when you're with others. Right, right.

3:08

But and there's already sort of

3:10

a timeline in place because of

3:12

arrangements and the funeral and you

3:14

know you kind of have to

3:17

go with that timeline even though

3:19

it may not align with yours.

3:21

Yeah. Yeah, I do wonder about

3:23

that though, the timeline. Like, I

3:25

think the way that traditional funeral

3:27

arrangements are done in the West

3:29

maybe could use a revamp. I'm

3:31

not sure anyone really leaves a

3:33

funeral going, gosh, that really helped

3:36

me. I don't know, maybe they

3:38

do, but I've never been to a

3:40

really great funeral where I felt like,

3:42

yeah, that really helped me process things.

3:44

They seemed... like, hey this is for

3:46

someone else, but I'm not sure who

3:49

that other person or who that other

3:51

group of people is, but we're all

3:53

doing this because it's what we're

3:55

supposed to do. Right, yeah, it's just

3:58

culture and tradition and... I

4:00

would have to say my dad's funeral

4:02

helped me to some degree. It

4:04

was more of a celebration

4:06

because he had lived a long

4:09

life and he was no longer

4:11

suffering and all of that. And the

4:13

other thing is when he was

4:15

in the hospital at the end,

4:17

I recorded a video of him and

4:19

he was in his hospital bed.

4:22

My mom was in the chair.

4:24

I was recording the video just

4:26

chatting with him. And he could say

4:28

some funny stuff. And my mom was

4:31

just dying laughing. And it was

4:33

great. It was really fun. And we

4:35

played that video at the funeral.

4:37

So yeah, everybody loved that. And

4:39

so yeah, it was kind of a, it

4:42

helped, I think, in that case. Was your,

4:44

are you like your dad in that

4:46

way that you, he used to tell

4:48

like those kind of funny dad jokes?

4:50

One liner, smart humor, is that

4:53

what you're referring to? Yeah,

4:55

exactly. Completely handsome and clever

4:57

and yes, yes, that's exactly

4:59

what I meant, Scott. Yeah. And

5:01

I resemble him. He was completely

5:04

gray at 30. And here I am, but

5:06

he didn't have a beard. And

5:08

probably not black fingernail polish.

5:10

No, he never even knew

5:13

about the black. He wasn't

5:15

excited about my tattoos either. I

5:17

remember when I got my first one

5:19

and I went over to their house and

5:21

I showed my mom and... She looked at

5:23

it and she's even if she hated

5:25

it she'd say oh that's nice or

5:28

whatever she'd be nice about it and

5:30

she told my dad what does he

5:32

Scott has got a tattoo what do you

5:34

think what do you think of it

5:36

and he said well not too much

5:38

is what I think of it that does

5:40

sound like you yeah I guess so I don't

5:42

know I do resemble him in

5:44

some ways that's fine so what

5:46

about you what's the most difficult

5:48

thing you've ever had to tell

5:50

someone pales in comparison to

5:53

the bad news that you

5:55

had to give. Before dating

5:57

my husband, I dated

5:59

guy who was just wonderful.

6:01

I mean, he was just a

6:04

really amazing human. And

6:06

we were a good

6:08

fit personality wise, temperament

6:10

wise, in almost every

6:12

way, but there were ingredients

6:14

to our lives that would

6:16

not have set us up

6:18

for long-term success. And that's

6:21

a hard call to make, you know.

6:23

When everything seems to be

6:25

going well at the moment, right?

6:28

Exactly. He was military and

6:30

I'm not cut out to

6:32

be a military spouse, as

6:34

all of our listeners know.

6:36

I'm far too mouthy for

6:38

that. And he was very

6:41

Catholic and I'm divorced and

6:43

so he would want like

6:45

an annulment permission from the

6:47

church essentially to get married.

6:49

And he had some just,

6:51

you know, traditional ideas that

6:53

weren't vibing. He was also

6:55

a space and missiles officer.

6:57

which meant that were we to

6:59

marry, we would live in places

7:02

like North Dakota. And I am

7:04

not meant to live in North

7:06

Dakota. So all of those things

7:09

are hard things to really end

7:11

something really beautiful because of, but

7:13

I knew that it had to

7:16

be done. So that was really

7:18

hard. How did you do that?

7:20

Do you just blurt it out,

7:23

rip the band-aid off? Or did you

7:25

preface it? Here's what I'm about to

7:27

say, and I know it's not going

7:29

to be easy. Do you remember how

7:32

you approached that? I remember where

7:34

I was sitting. I remember my

7:36

heart was beating out of my chest.

7:38

How long have you been dating? Maybe

7:40

just under a year. All right. So

7:42

not brand new, but that was kind

7:44

of a long one, yeah. Yeah. And we

7:47

loved each other genuinely. Like there

7:49

was love. Like we said I

7:51

love you, but I just returned

7:53

from visiting him. at his air

7:55

base in California. And I

7:57

just knew that it was.

8:00

you know, needed to happen. And

8:02

I called him, I remember

8:04

it was like four o'clock

8:06

in the afternoon, I remember

8:08

all these strange details. And

8:11

I don't remember exactly

8:13

what I said, but I did

8:15

not try to make small talk

8:17

in the beginning. I wrote down

8:19

what I wanted to say. I

8:21

picked the biggest difference to talk

8:24

about. I probably googled how

8:26

to break up with someone now

8:28

that I'm thinking about it. That's

8:30

something I would do. Yeah. Like

8:32

the dorkiest way. And he was

8:34

a fellow dork like me, like

8:36

super nerd. You know, we had

8:39

so much in common. And then

8:41

I tried to like comfort him

8:43

afterwards and then that really upset

8:45

him. So we had kind of

8:47

decided to be friends and when

8:50

he came back into town. he

8:52

wanted to have coffee so he

8:54

had coffee and I had a

8:56

couple of his things that I

8:58

brought to give him and when he

9:00

saw them his face just dropped

9:03

and so I think he was

9:05

hoping oh he thought there was still

9:07

a chance yeah so when he saw

9:09

that bag of stuff he knew that

9:11

there was no chance and so

9:14

the next morning I woke up to

9:16

a note on my car that said

9:18

we can't be friends. So, which

9:20

I totally respected. So it was

9:22

a very clean break, which I

9:24

understand doesn't happen very much, but

9:27

super great guy, and I hope

9:29

that he found the right person for

9:31

him. I don't know, obviously, because we

9:33

have not kept in touch. But yeah,

9:35

that was really tough. Yeah, when

9:38

you described him using the

9:40

word traditional, I knew that's not going

9:42

to be a fit with Meredith. Well,

9:44

my husband is traditional in a

9:46

lot of ways, and I am

9:48

traditional in a lot of ways

9:51

also, but it's the ways that

9:53

go together that matter the most,

9:55

right? Right, okay. Yeah, that makes

9:57

sense. Well, some of our listeners

9:59

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Less. Hosted.

12:00

by former NFL linebacker, TV

12:02

commentator, and New York

12:04

Times best-selling author Tim

12:06

Green and his son

12:08

Troy, this podcast dives

12:10

deep into extraordinary lives

12:12

and unforgettable moments. Every episode

12:15

challenges you to see the truth,

12:17

no matter how hard it is to

12:19

face. Tim's own battle with

12:21

ALS has added a powerful

12:24

layer of urgency and vulnerability

12:26

to these conversations. reminding us

12:28

all that every moment matters.

12:31

And nothing illustrates that more

12:33

than episode 27 with

12:36

Howard Lutnik. Picture this.

12:38

On September 11, 2001, while

12:40

most were working high above

12:42

in the World Trade Center,

12:44

Howard was dropping his

12:47

five-year-old off at

12:49

kindergarten. In minutes, a

12:51

plane struck the North Tower

12:53

and 658 employees of

12:55

Cantor Fitzgerald. and even his

12:58

own brother were lost. In this

13:00

unforgettable episode, Howard

13:02

bears his soul. He recounts

13:04

that fateful morning, the chaos,

13:06

the gut-wrenching grief, and

13:09

the moment he found himself running

13:11

from a black cloud of

13:13

death, diving under a car

13:15

as the towers collapsed. He

13:17

opens up about the impossible decisions

13:20

he made in the aftermath

13:22

of 9-11. The relentless

13:24

media scrutiny... and how

13:26

he transformed personal tragedy into

13:29

a mission to help the

13:31

families left behind. If you're

13:33

seeking a conversation that doesn't

13:36

hold back, where every detail

13:38

matters and nothing is left

13:40

unsaid, then it's time to listen.

13:42

Just search Nothing Left Unsaid on

13:45

your favorite podcast app and

13:47

make sure you don't miss the

13:49

full story. Again, that's Nothing

13:51

Left Unsaid, episode 27 with

13:53

Howard Lutnik. Okay,

13:55

the first listener is a woman and she

13:57

says I was a trainer and a 911

14:00

call center and had to tell a

14:02

woman she could not be a dispatcher.

14:04

She just couldn't do it. She later

14:06

went on to be a helicopter pilot

14:08

and a helicopter mechanic. I used her

14:11

as an example to others for years

14:13

afterwards. Just because you can't do my

14:15

job, doesn't mean you can't do something

14:17

else. That's fabulous. I really want

14:19

to know why she couldn't be a 9-1-1 dispatcher.

14:22

Hmm. I kind of assumed it's because

14:24

she couldn't handle the stress

14:26

because that's a very stressful

14:28

job. But to be a helicopter

14:30

pilot, that's quite a high-stress

14:32

job also. Yeah, that's true. That's

14:34

true. But I picture a helicopter

14:37

pilot as kind of playing a

14:39

video game, you know, and you practice

14:41

enough, you can be good at it. And

14:43

the same things happen all the time. But

14:45

with 911, you have no idea what the

14:47

next call is going to be. So, I

14:49

don't know. I'm completely guessing at

14:52

it. I have no idea. There's a

14:54

lot of reasons why someone couldn't be

14:56

a 911 dispatcher. It's just that she

14:58

could be a helicopter pilot that's messing

15:00

me up. Like I'm having a hard

15:02

time guessing. What would make someone a

15:04

bad 911 dispatcher but a great helicopter

15:07

pilot? I'm not sure. Hmm. That's

15:09

a good question. Yeah, I don't know. I

15:11

thought for this trainer though, good for

15:13

her because, you know, the person in

15:15

training probably didn't want to hear that,

15:17

but in this case, obviously the truth

15:19

is the best thing because people's lives

15:22

are at stake. And also the trainer,

15:24

in some cases in a position like

15:26

that, you are evaluated based on completion

15:28

rate or graduation rate of the people

15:30

you're training. And she still, you know,

15:33

it may have hurt her percentage or her

15:35

ratio, but she still did the right

15:37

thing. So that's good. I don't wonder

15:39

if they still stay in touch, because obviously

15:41

she knew what her career was down

15:43

the road. Maybe that's why she didn't

15:45

say what she didn't do well. Maybe

15:47

she's in your group, that would be

15:49

a twist. They're both in... the Facebook

15:51

group. We know one of them is.

15:54

All right, number two is a woman

15:56

and she says, I'm still trying

15:58

to think and have enough

16:00

courage to tell my boyfriend

16:02

I'm a recovering addict. I've

16:04

been clean for 20 years

16:07

and will never touch the

16:09

drug again, but my boyfriend

16:11

is a hard person to talk

16:13

to. I wonder how long they've

16:15

been together. Of course we

16:18

don't know. I bet that

16:20

she is overthinking it. I think

16:22

so too. I bet he is

16:24

probably going to be very supportive.

16:26

I mean... I know that's

16:29

kind of seeing things

16:31

through rose-colored glasses, but

16:33

sometimes people who are

16:35

self-conscious about something, they

16:37

catastropize. So I wonder if that's

16:39

the case here. Could be. But I

16:42

was thinking also, if he's going to

16:44

react badly to this, I would

16:46

maybe rethink the whole relationship,

16:48

you know, because she hasn't touched the

16:51

drug in 20 years, whatever the drug

16:53

is. And I mean... We're not running an

16:55

advice show here, obviously. But the other thing

16:57

is, how do you keep such a big

17:00

thing from someone who you might spend the

17:02

rest of your life with, if that's what

17:04

they're thinking? Yeah, that's tough. Before

17:07

we started recording, I was digging

17:09

through boxes trying to find a

17:11

book that I read called Fierce

17:13

Conversations by Susan Scott, because I

17:15

thought certainly there was something in

17:17

there that related to one of

17:19

these scenarios. Turns out I don't

17:22

have the book anymore, but it's

17:24

a really good book for how

17:26

to initiate and execute

17:28

on some of these topics that

17:31

are tougher. And I think that

17:33

one's tricky because you've got

17:35

love in the mix. Yeah,

17:37

that adds a level of

17:39

complexity to it. Well, the

17:42

next one is a woman who says,

17:44

a stranger that her mom died. I

17:46

called them to make funeral arrangements and

17:49

they had no idea because the rest

17:51

of the family didn't tell them, oh

17:53

my gosh. That is crazy. That is not

17:55

good. And she didn't even realize

17:57

that she was delivering that.

18:00

news. I mean both parties were caught

18:02

by surprise. Yeah. I just wonder how that

18:04

could happen though. Well you know families

18:06

are complicated. Yeah well obviously

18:08

some there was some situation here that

18:10

it did happen but I'm wondering if

18:13

maybe mom was in a nursing home

18:15

and this was one of the daughters

18:17

that's out of state and wasn't completely

18:20

day-to-day in touch or something you know.

18:22

I think this is the first listener

18:24

answer that we've had that is

18:26

only two sentences long. There's so

18:28

much... information not here. Like we

18:31

don't know, did the mom have some

18:33

sort of personal situation that

18:35

would have caused a rift

18:37

potentially between the family? Like

18:39

if someone has a gambling

18:42

addiction, for example, and they

18:44

may have stolen from other

18:46

family members, they might not

18:48

be in communication with the

18:50

other family members. So there's a

18:53

lot, there's a lot unsaid here.

18:55

Yeah. But I mean, it seems like

18:57

when the mother dies. Someone needs

18:59

to make all the phone calls to

19:01

the people who need to know. And

19:03

in this case, the funeral director

19:06

knew before her own daughter did.

19:08

That just seems weird. Yeah. But

19:10

yeah, every family's different and

19:12

there's a lot of weird

19:14

things that happen in families.

19:17

It's very true. Yep. Okay, number

19:19

four is a man and he says...

19:21

When I was stationed overseas with one

19:23

of my best friends, our command

19:25

brought me in to tell me

19:27

that they had received a Red

19:30

Cross message from his wife

19:32

that his two-month-old daughter, my

19:34

goddaughter, was diagnosed with

19:37

leukemia. In her message she asked

19:39

that they asked me to be the

19:41

one to tell him as she knew

19:43

he was going to need someone he's

19:45

close to to lean on. Of course

19:47

I agreed. They put me in touch

19:49

with his wife who was with their

19:51

doctor so I could get some more

19:53

information. The doctor said that the

19:56

little girl would likely pass

19:58

in the next 48 hours by far

20:00

the toughest conversation I've

20:02

ever had and to have to

20:04

tell him that when we both knew

20:06

there was no way possible he could

20:09

make it home in the next two

20:11

days to meet with her was heartbreaking.

20:14

She did end up surviving

20:16

another six months long enough

20:18

for us to both get

20:20

home and spend some time

20:22

making some wonderful memories with

20:24

her before she passed still miss

20:27

her every day. Wow. That is

20:29

incredibly sad. It is, but

20:31

from two days to six

20:33

months. Yeah. That's the funny thing,

20:35

though, about when they estimate how

20:37

much time you have. You know,

20:39

my brother passed not too long

20:42

ago, and it was

20:44

esophageal cancer. And they gave

20:46

him two months, which everybody

20:48

was just shocked because he

20:50

had never been in the hospital,

20:53

and he was gone within a

20:55

week. All it is is an

20:58

estimate, you know. Yeah. So I was

21:00

wondering if this father

21:02

was there for the birth

21:04

of that little girl two

21:06

months earlier, because that's

21:08

the way it is with

21:11

military, you know, you miss a lot

21:13

of family stuff like that.

21:15

That's a good question.

21:18

Yeah. And of course

21:20

the impact of that on the

21:22

relationship. Yeah. Of

21:24

these two, the two men. Well,

21:26

I was thinking of the husband

21:29

and the wife. Oh, right. Yeah.

21:31

Yeah. Anytime you lose a child, it's

21:33

difficult on the marriage.

21:35

Yeah. And just being a military

21:38

spouse, in general, as I

21:40

said, I wasn't cut out

21:42

for it. Right. You know, that

21:44

is really something. Yeah. Okay. Well,

21:46

this was a serious one. It

21:48

was. But that's what we

21:51

do sometimes. Yes, it is. It

21:53

can be I think cathartic though

21:55

for somebody who has gone through

21:57

this or knows someone who has...

21:59

gone through something similar. And yeah,

22:02

you know, I hope that if someone

22:04

has to have a fierce conversation,

22:06

a hard conversation, that maybe they'll

22:08

look into that book and maybe that'll

22:10

help them. I don't know how much of

22:12

it was difficult conversations in the workplace

22:14

versus the family because it's been

22:17

a long time since I've read

22:19

it, but that is hopefully a

22:21

somewhat helpful resource. And what's the name

22:23

of the book again? It's called Fierce

22:25

Conversations by Susan Scott. Okay, we'll

22:28

put a link to that. Yeah. So we'll

22:30

have that and any other

22:32

links will be in the

22:34

show notes at what

22:36

was that like.com/ TQ35

22:39

and to deliver more

22:41

bad news we've got

22:43

another episode in two

22:45

weeks. See you next Tuesday.

22:48

See you then. If

22:51

you want to check out the current

22:54

Tuesday question that everyone's discussing, head

22:56

over to what was that like.com/Facebook

22:58

and joining the conversation. Big thanks

23:01

as always to my co-host Meredith for

23:03

joining me here each time. You can

23:05

probably tell we enjoy doing this. And

23:07

if you want more Meredith, check out

23:10

her podcast. It's called Meredith for Real,

23:12

the curious introvert. And I can tell

23:14

you she's definitely curious because a lot

23:17

of times she and her guests have

23:19

conversations about things you don't normally here

23:21

talked about. Her website is meredithforreal.com. And

23:24

another big thanks to Keona, our

23:26

producer, who puts these episodes together.

23:28

And she has an amazing show

23:30

too. It's called Birth as We

23:32

Know It. Birth is Keona's passion,

23:35

and on every episode of her

23:37

show, she brings on someone to

23:39

tell their story about giving birth,

23:41

all the way from conception to

23:43

postpartum. Her website is Birth as

23:45

We Know It podcast.com. And if you

23:48

like hearing first-hand stories of people who

23:50

have gone through something really unusual, that's

23:52

exactly what we do right here on

23:54

what was that like every other Friday.

23:56

Just hit the subscribe or follow button

23:58

right there on your podcast app. you'll

24:00

never miss an episode. I'm Scott

24:02

Johnson. Stay safe and we'll see

24:05

you next time.