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to change. Subject to change. 1

0:40

of Andor had critics calling it

0:42

the best Star Wars series yet.

0:45

Now, season 2 of the Emmy-nominated

0:47

series returns April 22nd. Follow Cassian

0:50

Andor as he embarks on a

0:52

path from a rebel to a

0:54

hero. Starring Diego Luna and from

0:57

creator Tony Gilroy, writer of Michael

0:59

Clayton and the Born identity. Season

1:01

2 of Andor is streaming April

1:04

22nd only on Disney Plus. Welcome

1:19

back to Dark Poutine. I

1:21

am Mike Brown. You're in

1:23

Langley, British Columbia, lovely Langley.

1:26

And I'm recording from the

1:28

Avro Fighter Jet up in

1:30

the sky. I'm the one

1:32

with the hidden one. You're

1:35

the one who's hidden it.

1:37

Oh, okay. Well, we'll get

1:39

into that. The views, information,

1:42

and opinions expressed during

1:44

the Dark Patine podcast are

1:46

solely those of the producer

1:49

and do not necessarily

1:51

represent those of curious cast,

1:53

its affiliate, Global News, nor

1:56

their parent company, Chorus

1:58

Entertainment. Dark

2:01

Poutine is not for the faint of heart

2:03

or squeamish. Listener discretion is strongly advised. We're

2:05

not experts on the topics we present, nor

2:08

are we journalists. We're two ordinary Canadian schmucks

2:10

chatting about crime and the dark side of

2:12

history. Let's get to it. Put on

2:14

your took, grab yourself a double double end

2:16

in a nimobar, it's time to scarf down

2:19

some dark poutine. You are responsible for obtaining

2:21

and maintaining at your own cost, all equipment

2:23

needed to listen to dark poutine. Dark Poutine

2:26

can be addictive. Side effects may include, but

2:28

not be limited to you. Posing and questioning

2:30

the system. Elevated heart rate, pondering humanity. Odd

2:32

looks from colleagues as you laugh out let

2:35

at work. Family members, not into true crime,

2:37

worrying about you. Positive side effects may include

2:39

some perspectives and opinions that you disagree with,

2:42

as well as some wiltness and empathy. If

2:44

you don't think Dark Poutine is for you,

2:46

consult your doctor immediately. On

3:27

October 4th, 1957, as the

3:29

world's eyes turned skyward to

3:31

witness the launch of Sputnik

3:33

1, another technological marvel was

3:35

about to be unveiled in

3:37

a hangar in Malt in

3:40

Ontario, the Avro Arrow, Canada's

3:42

ambitious, supersonic interceptor, was poised

3:44

to revolutionize aviation. But within

3:46

two years, it would vanish

3:48

without a trace, leaving behind

3:50

a legacy of controversy and

3:52

conspiracy. This is Dark Putine

3:54

episode 361 Avro Arrow. in

3:56

the rise and fall of

3:58

Canada's dream fighter. In the

4:00

aftermath of World War II,

4:02

the global landscape shifted dramatically

4:04

as two superpowers emerged from

4:07

the rubble. The United States

4:09

and the Soviet Union. Once

4:11

allies against the Axis powers,

4:13

these nations quickly found themselves

4:15

locked in a tense ideological

4:17

struggle defining the latter half

4:19

of the 20th century. The

4:21

Cold War, as it came

4:23

to be known, was characterized

4:25

by political, economic, and military

4:27

rivalries that stretched across continents.

4:29

All fields of Europe and

4:31

Asia, the Soviet Union, embolded

4:34

by its wartime victories and

4:36

driven by a desire to

4:38

spread communism, began to flex

4:40

its military might. Of particular

4:42

concern to Western powers was

4:44

the development of a Soviet

4:46

nuclear bomb and long-range Soviet

4:48

bombers capable of delivering their

4:50

deadly payloads to targets across

4:52

North America. The Arctic Circle,

4:54

once a frozen wasteland of

4:56

little strategic importance, suddenly became

4:58

the front line of this

5:01

new conflict. Military strategists realized

5:03

that the shortest route for

5:05

Soviet bombers to reach American

5:07

soil, would be a path

5:09

across the top of the

5:11

world skirting the North Pole.

5:13

This realization sent shockwaves through

5:15

the defense establishments of both

5:17

the US and Canada, spurring

5:19

a frantic race to bolster

5:21

Arctic defenses. In response to

5:23

this perceived threat, a network

5:25

of early warning radar stations

5:28

began to sprout across the

5:30

continent's northern reaches. The distant

5:32

early warning line, or due

5:34

line, stretched from Alaska to

5:36

Greenland, forming an electronic tripwire

5:38

to detect any incoming Soviet

5:40

aircraft. However, we previously talked

5:42

about the due line in

5:44

episode 260, the Cold War

5:46

in Canada spies, bunk, and

5:48

nukes, oh my. However, it

5:50

was determined that radar alone

5:52

could not count... this new

5:55

menace from the skies. I

5:57

have not heard about the

5:59

due line for years. Right.

6:01

Did we all knew about

6:03

it in the 80s for

6:05

some reason? Yes. Yeah. I

6:07

mean it was probably because

6:09

Rush wrote that song just

6:11

an early warning. Oh I

6:13

didn't listen to Rush. Of

6:15

course you didn't. The powers

6:17

that be determined that the

6:20

need for a cutting-edge interceptor

6:22

aircraft was paramount. It was

6:24

in this climate of urgency

6:26

and ambition that Avro Canada

6:28

was born, destined to become

6:30

a titan in the nation's

6:32

aviation industry. At the helm

6:34

of this burgeoning enterprise stood

6:36

three visionaries whose names would

6:38

become synonymous with one of

6:40

the most ambitious projects in

6:42

Canadian aviation history. Frederick Thomas

6:44

Smy, a Hamilton native with

6:47

keen business acumen, took the

6:49

reins as president of Avro

6:51

Aircraft. Smey's journey to this

6:53

pivotal role began during the

6:55

war when he served as

6:57

an official in the Department

6:59

of Munitions and Supply, eventually

7:01

rising to Director of Aircraft

7:03

Production. Crawford Gordon Jr., a

7:05

wartime leader in defense production

7:07

under the legendary CD Howe,

7:09

assumed the presidency of Avi

7:11

Rowe in Canada 1951. Gordon's

7:14

appointment came at a critical

7:16

junction as the company grappled

7:18

with the challenges in developing

7:20

the CF100 Canuk fighter interceptor

7:22

interceptor. His leadership would prove

7:24

instrumental in steering Avro through

7:26

its most ambitious and tumultuous

7:28

years. Completing this triumvirate was

7:30

James C. Floyd, the brilliant

7:32

chief engineer whose innovative designs

7:34

would push the boundaries of

7:36

aerospace technology. Floyd's journey in

7:38

aviation, began at the tender

7:41

age of 15, When he

7:43

joined the Avi Row Company

7:45

in the UK as an

7:47

apprentice, his expertise and vision

7:49

would become the driving force

7:51

behind Avro Canada's most groundbreaking

7:53

projects. From humble beginnings with

7:55

just 350 former Victory Aircraft

7:57

employees, Avro Canada Canada embarked

7:59

on a trajectory of explosive

8:01

growth. The company's expansion was

8:03

remarkable. Swelling its ranks to

8:05

over 14,000 employees by the

8:08

late 1950s, this growth transformed

8:10

Arrow into a dominant force

8:12

in the Canadian aerospace industry

8:14

with ripple effects throughout the

8:16

small town of Moulton Ontario

8:18

where the company was based.

8:20

The impact of Avro's presence

8:22

extended far beyond its factory

8:24

walls. The influx of skilled

8:26

workers and their families led

8:28

to Malton's housing, infrastructure and amenities

8:31

boom. The once quiet town was

8:33

rapidly evolving into a hub of

8:35

innovation and industry. Its fortunes inextricably

8:37

linked to the soaring ambitions of

8:39

Avro Canada. Yeah, Malton is in

8:41

Mississauga, which is a suburb of

8:43

Toronto. I had to look it

8:45

up because I'm like, why don't

8:47

I know Malton from? I'm like,

8:49

oh yeah, it's that part of

8:51

Mississauga. There you go. Have you

8:53

ever been? Yeah, I used to

8:55

work in an office that was

8:57

probably technically in Malton. Okay. United

9:00

States and Canada recognized that

9:02

their existing fighter planes were

9:04

ill-equipped to deal with high

9:06

altitude, high-speed Soviet bombers. The race

9:09

was on to develop aircraft

9:11

that could climb rapidly, fly

9:13

at supersonic speeds. and operate

9:15

effectively in the harsh Arctic

9:17

environment. In the United States,

9:19

projects like the XF-103 and

9:22

the YF-12 push the boundaries

9:24

of aerospace technology, aiming to

9:26

create interceptors capable of mock

9:28

three-plus speeds and extreme

9:31

altitudes. Meanwhile, Canada determined

9:33

to assert its sovereignty

9:35

and contribute meaningfully to

9:37

continental defense embarked on

9:39

its own ambitious interceptor

9:41

program. Canada sought to develop

9:44

an aircraft that could meet the

9:46

unique challenges of its geography and

9:48

showcase the country's technological prowess on

9:51

the world stage. Against this backdrop

9:53

a bold vision began to take

9:55

shape in the offices of A.V. Rowe

9:57

Canada, a subsidiary of the British

9:59

Hawker Sidley Group. The company

10:01

which had already made a

10:03

name for itself with the

10:05

development of the CF100 Canuck,

10:08

Canada's first domestically designed and

10:10

built jet fighter, set its

10:12

sights on an even more

10:14

ambitious project. The Avro- CF100

10:16

Canuck, nicknamed the Clunk, emerged

10:18

as Canada's home-grown solution to

10:20

the Cold War threat of

10:23

Soviet bombers. as the only

10:25

Canadian design fighter to enter

10:27

mass production the twin engine

10:29

all-weather interceptor marked a significant

10:31

milestone in the country's aerospace

10:33

industry. The clunk is such

10:35

a Canadian nickname I've never

10:38

heard it called that. Yeah

10:40

it's like well the clunk

10:42

kind of sucked so we're

10:44

sort of taking the piss

10:46

out of ourselves I guess.

10:48

Absolutely. I mean if you

10:50

look at pictures of the

10:53

clunk it didn't have the

10:55

prettiest lines for an aircraft.

10:57

That said, it was effective.

10:59

From its maiden flight in

11:01

January 1950, the CF100 quickly

11:03

proved its worth. Its robust

11:05

design allowed for effective operation

11:08

in Canada's harsh northern conditions,

11:10

boasting impressive high-altitude performance and

11:12

long-range capabilities. Advanced radar and

11:14

fire control systems enabled interception

11:16

missions in all weather conditions

11:18

day or night. The Canucks'

11:20

development wasn't without challenges. Early

11:22

prototypes faced landing gear and

11:25

wing structural issues, while engine

11:27

relocation caused significant engineering hurdles.

11:29

These setbacks, however, were eventually

11:31

overcome. The Canucks served with

11:33

distinction in both Norad and

11:35

NATO with four squadrons deployed

11:37

to Europe. Its versatility extended

11:40

to electronic warfare, reconnaissance, and

11:42

training missions. Designed initially for

11:44

a 2,000 hour service life,

11:46

some airframes surprisingly lasted up

11:48

to 20,000 hours. The aircraft

11:50

had its quirks, including a

11:52

peculiar cockpit instrument arrangement and

11:55

cramped conditions for the navigator.

11:57

An oddly placed compass led

11:59

to a a bent control

12:01

column, often leaving pilots with

12:03

a noticeable lean after long

12:05

flights. From 1952 to 1981,

12:07

the CF100 defended Canadian skies

12:10

and served as a platform

12:12

for technological advancements. The Canucks

12:14

legacy inspired a generation of

12:16

Canadian engineers and aviators solidifying

12:18

Canada's place in military history.

12:20

Inspired by the Canucks success.

12:22

In 1953, Avi Row Canada's

12:25

engineers, led by the brilliant

12:27

James C. Floyd, began to

12:29

conceptualize an aircraft that would

12:31

push the boundaries of what

12:33

was possible in interceptor design.

12:35

Their goal was nothing less

12:37

than to create the fastest

12:39

and most advanced fighter plane

12:42

in the world, one that

12:44

could outperform anything in the

12:46

Soviet Arsenal and secure Canada's

12:48

place at the forefront of

12:50

aerospace technology. Avro Canada began

12:52

developing the legendary and now

12:54

mythical CF-105 arrow. The ambitious

12:57

design process for this supersonic

12:59

interceptor was a testament to

13:01

Canadian ingenuity and determination. Wind

13:03

tunnel testing became a cornerstone

13:05

of arrows development. Hundreds of

13:07

hours were devoted to this

13:09

meticulous process with engineers scrutinizing

13:12

every aspect of the aircraft's

13:14

aerodynamics aerodynamics aerodynamics. The data

13:16

gathered from these tests was

13:18

invaluable in forming crucial design

13:20

decisions and refinements. Avro Canada

13:22

embraced the power of emerging

13:24

computer technology in a move

13:27

that some felt overly bold

13:29

at the time. The arrow

13:31

became the first aircraft designed

13:33

with digital computers for aerodynamic

13:35

analysis and structural matrix design.

13:37

This pioneering approach allowed for

13:39

unprecedented precision in the aircraft's

13:41

development, setting a new standard

13:44

in aerospace engineering. The scale

13:46

model experiments conducted during the

13:48

arrows development were equally groundbreaking.

13:50

Nine models, each one-eighth the

13:52

size of the full-scale planes

13:54

were launched on rockets over

13:56

Lake Ontario to gauge flight

13:59

worthiness. Two additional models were

14:01

launched over the Atlantic Ocean,

14:03

pushing the boundaries of testing

14:05

methodologies. These experiments provided crucial

14:07

data on the arrows performance

14:09

at supersonic speeds, informing further

14:11

refinements to the design. The

14:14

arrows computerized flight control and

14:16

weapon system was at the

14:18

heart of its innovative design.

14:20

The sophisticated system represented a

14:22

quantum leap in aircraft technology

14:24

integrating navigation, weapons release, automatic

14:26

search and track radar, data

14:29

link inputs, and various other

14:31

advanced features. Remember, this is

14:33

the 1950s. The arrow was

14:35

designed to be the first

14:37

aircraft with a fly-by-wire control

14:39

system replacing traditional mechanical controls

14:41

with an electrical system that

14:44

promised enhanced responsiveness and maneuverability.

14:46

The arrow's sleek Delta wing

14:48

design was not just a

14:50

marvel of aesthetics, but a

14:52

triumph of aerodynamic engineering. The

14:54

aircraft's swept back Delta wings

14:56

gave it a futuristic appearance

14:58

while providing the necessary stability

15:01

and performance for supersonic flight.

15:03

The use of a dropped

15:05

leading edge and aerodynamic twist

15:07

on the wing further enhance

15:09

the arrow's flight characteristics. I

15:11

have a drooped leading edge.

15:13

Oh dear, yes. We don't

15:16

want to get into that.

15:18

That's post-surgery though. Seriously though,

15:20

this, so much work went

15:22

into this. So, like a

15:24

lot of leading edge thinking

15:26

went into this at the

15:28

time. It's so much. You're

15:31

rhyming all this stuff off

15:33

and it's like, wow, like

15:35

so much work went into

15:37

this. That was new thinking

15:39

at the time. Absolutely new

15:41

thinking. This was all innovation

15:43

and Canadian innovation as well.

15:46

As the design process progressed,

15:48

the arrow began to take

15:50

shape as a marvel of

15:52

modern aviation. Its long internal

15:54

weapons bay was designed to

15:56

accommodate special long-range standoff and

15:58

cruise missiles, a feature that

16:01

set it apart from its

16:03

contemporaries, integrating ground-mapping radar and

16:05

a radar altimeter with the

16:07

flight control system allowed the

16:09

arrow to excel in interceptor

16:11

and reconnaissance roles. This versatility

16:13

was unheard of at the

16:15

time. On October 4th, 1957,

16:18

the first Avro arrow was

16:20

unveiled to the world, a

16:22

day that would be etched

16:24

in the annals of Canadian

16:26

aviation history. The Malton Avro

16:28

Plant became the excitement epicenter

16:30

of the reveal as 12,000

16:33

spectators gathered. The crowd included

16:35

proud Avro employees, government officials,

16:37

media reps, and aviation enthusiasts

16:39

nationwide. Many in attendance, from

16:41

engineers and technicians to assembly

16:43

line workers, had played a

16:45

part in the arrows creation.

16:48

For them, this moment represented

16:50

the culmination of years of

16:52

hard work, innovation, and unwavering

16:54

dedication and unwavering dedication. A

16:56

collective gasp rippled through the

16:58

crowd as the massive hangar

17:00

doors slowly opened. There, bathed

17:03

in the October sunlight, stood

17:05

the CF 105 arrow in

17:07

all its glory. The aircraft's

17:09

appearance was nothing short of

17:11

breathtaking. Its swept back Delta

17:13

wings gave it a sleek,

17:15

futuristic silhouette that embodied the

17:17

jet age's promise and potential.

17:20

The arrow's paint scheme was

17:22

as striking as its design.

17:24

The aircraft was adorned in

17:26

a dazzling combination of white,

17:28

mat black, and dayglow orange.

17:30

This bold color palette enhanced

17:32

arrows visual appeal and served

17:35

practical purposes for visibility and

17:37

testing. The white paint covering

17:39

most of the airframe provided

17:41

a clean canvas that accentuated

17:43

the arrows elegant lines and

17:45

curves. The strategically placed mat

17:47

black sections created a striking

17:50

contrast that highlighted key features

17:52

of the aircraft's design. The

17:54

dayglow orange applied to specific

17:56

areas such as the wingtips

17:58

and tail ensured high visibility

18:00

during flight tests and potential

18:02

emergency situations. As spectators circled

18:05

the aircraft taking in every

18:07

detail, there was a palpable

18:09

sense of pride and awe. The arrow

18:11

size alone was impressive with a wingspan

18:13

of 50 feet and the length of

18:16

77. Its presence dominated the

18:18

hangar, a physical manifestation

18:21

of Canada's technological prowess

18:23

and ambition. You know, imagine being

18:25

there, seeing it live for the

18:28

first time, it would have been

18:30

so futuristic looking. Yeah. I think

18:32

it looks really cool now, but

18:34

back then, it would have been

18:36

one of those mind-blown moments, right?

18:38

Totally. The unveiling ceremony featured

18:41

speeches from key figures involved

18:43

in the Arrow's development. Frederick

18:46

Smy. Crawford Gordon Jr. and James

18:48

C. Floyd each took turns addressing

18:50

the crowd, sharing insights into the

18:53

aircraft's capabilities and the challenges overcome

18:55

during its development. Their words were

18:57

met with enthusiastic applause. The audience

18:59

keenly aware that they were witnessing

19:02

a pivotal moment in aviation history.

19:04

As the day progressed, attendees were

19:06

given the opportunity to look at

19:09

the arrow more closely. Engineers and

19:11

technicians were on hand to explain

19:13

various features of the aircraft from

19:16

its advanced avionics to its

19:18

powerful Pratt and Whitney J75

19:20

engines. The atmosphere was electric,

19:22

with excitement and speculation about

19:24

the arrows potential performance and

19:26

its implications for Canada's role

19:29

in global aerospace. As the

19:31

Avro Arrow project progressed from

19:33

unveiling to flight testing, all

19:35

eyes turned to the man

19:37

who would pilot this groundbreaking

19:39

aircraft on its maiden voyage.

19:41

Janus Zorakowski, affectionately known as

19:44

Jan, Zorakowski brought a wealth

19:46

of experience and an unparalleled

19:48

reputation to his role as

19:50

Arrow's chief test pilot. Born

19:52

in Russia in 1914 and

19:55

raised in Poland, Zorakowski's passion

19:57

for aviation began early. As a

19:59

youth he He This

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28:24

innovation. However, as the project

28:26

progressed, storm clouds began to

28:28

gather on the horizon. Growing

28:30

concerns about its costs increasingly

28:33

overshadowed arrows triumphs. Each jet

28:35

came with a staggering price

28:37

of $6 million, equivalent to

28:39

$63 million in today's currency.

28:42

This astronomical figure at the

28:44

time raised eyebrows in political

28:46

circles, notably as Cold War

28:49

tensions shifted and evolved. Yeah,

28:51

I think what's interesting about

28:53

that is even at today's

28:55

money, 63 million dollars for like

28:58

a fighter like this, it's still

29:00

like this is national defense, right?

29:02

Yeah. And and if you're raising

29:04

eyebrows because of that it actually

29:07

yeah it was a lot but

29:09

it's not that much yeah when

29:11

it comes to this sort of

29:13

thing and if you keep it

29:15

going you need to get economies

29:18

of scale you start selling you

29:20

know it's it's there's some upfront

29:22

investment in this stuff that has

29:24

to happen yeah before you keep

29:26

going yeah like you said it

29:29

was so short-sighted it's so short-sighted

29:31

and ugh I, I, when I first saw

29:34

the title of this episode, I'm

29:36

like, eh, but I'm just, I

29:38

got really upset about the whole

29:40

thing. Yep. I mean, nobody dies

29:42

except the Avro Arrow in this.

29:44

No, but it's still like, it's

29:47

a sad story for me, right?

29:49

And for Canada. The financial burden

29:51

of the arrow program extended beyond

29:53

its direct costs. Funds were diverted

29:55

from other military initiatives to support

29:58

the ambitious project. This reallocating... of

30:00

resources created friction within the armed

30:02

forces with senior army and navy

30:04

officials questioning the program as

30:06

early as 1953. The concentration of

30:09

funds in the Air Force's coffers

30:11

left other branches feeling shortchanged and

30:14

under equipped. As the 1950s progressed

30:16

the political landscape in Canada underwent

30:18

significant changes. In 1957, the

30:21

liberal government that had initially championed

30:23

the arrow project was replaced by

30:25

John Defenbaker's progressive conservatives. This power

30:28

shift brought new priorities and a

30:30

more critical eye toward the nation's

30:33

defense spending. Defenbaker's government found

30:35

itself caught between competing pressures. On

30:37

one hand, there was a strong

30:39

desire to assert Canada's technological prowess

30:42

and maintain its newly established position

30:44

in the global aerospace industry.

30:46

On the other hand, there were

30:49

mounting concerns about the project's sustainability

30:51

and impact on the overall defense

30:53

budget. The arrow supporters argued that

30:56

the aircraft's advanced capabilities justified its

30:58

high cost. They pointed to

31:00

its potential to secure Canada's airspace

31:03

and contribute to the broader Western

31:05

Alliance. However, critics countered that the

31:07

program was draining resources from other

31:10

vital areas of national defense and

31:12

that the changing nature of warfare

31:15

might render the arrow obsolete before

31:17

it could be fully deployed. As

31:19

debates raged in Ottawa, the Avro

31:22

team continued their work pushing the

31:24

boundaries of what was possible

31:26

in aircraft design. Yet with each

31:29

passing month, the project's political tensions

31:31

intensified, casting an ever lengthening shadow

31:33

over the arrow's future. As political

31:36

tension simmered, a seismic shift was

31:38

occurring in the realm of

31:40

military strategy. The late 1950s marked

31:43

a pivotal moment in the evolution

31:45

of warfare, one that would have

31:47

profound implications for the Avro Arrow

31:50

and similar interceptor aircraft programs

31:52

worldwide. The primary threat that had

31:54

driven the development of the arrow,

31:57

the specter of Soviet, long... range

31:59

bombers approaching North American airspace was

32:01

rapidly being eclipsed by a new

32:04

and more terrifying danger. The

32:06

rise of intercontinental ballistic missiles, ICBMs,

32:08

was reshaping the landscape of global

32:11

security. ICBMs represented a paradigm shift

32:13

in warfare. These missiles could be

32:15

launched from deep within enemy territory,

32:18

traversed continents in minutes and

32:20

delivered devastating payloads with unprecedented speed

32:22

and accuracy. The traditional concept of

32:25

air defense which relied on intercepting

32:27

enemy aircraft suddenly seemed antiquated in

32:29

the face of this new

32:31

threat. This strategic shift was not

32:34

lost on military planners and politicians.

32:36

The United States, Canada's powerful southern

32:39

neighbour and key ally, was already

32:41

pivoting its defense strategy to address

32:43

the ICBM threat. The emphasis

32:45

was moving away from conventional bombers

32:48

and toward the development of missile

32:50

defense systems and a strategy of

32:53

nuclear deterrence. In this new reality,

32:55

the role of interceptor aircraft like

32:57

the arrow became less clear. While

33:00

still valuable for specific scenarios, their

33:02

ability to counter the most pressing

33:05

threats of the day was increasingly

33:07

called into question. The arrow, designed

33:09

to excel in high-altitude interception

33:11

of bomber aircraft, found itself in

33:14

a world where the enemy might

33:16

never need to send a plane

33:19

across the Arctic. Also, the formation

33:21

of the North American Aerospace Defense

33:23

Command, Norad, in 1958, further

33:25

complicated matters for the arrow program.

33:28

This joint US Canadian organization was

33:30

tasked with defending North American airspace

33:33

and its creation raised questions about

33:35

the need for separate national

33:37

interceptor programs. The changing landscape extended

33:39

beyond military considerations. Technological advancements were

33:42

occurring rapidly and there were concerns

33:44

that by the time the arrow

33:47

entered full service it might be

33:49

outpaced by newer innovations. The

33:51

aerospace world... was evolving quickly and

33:53

what seemed cutting edge one year

33:56

could become obsolete the next. You

33:58

know and Canada should have held

34:01

steady so joint programs are great

34:03

and important but developing your

34:05

own technology and your defense systems

34:07

is important right because you can't

34:10

always rely on and we're seeing

34:12

that now you can't always rely

34:15

on these partnerships and I've

34:17

always felt that we've underfunded this

34:19

sort of military spending in Canada

34:21

technological spending a lot of technological

34:24

spending comes out of military spending

34:26

right and you know it's not

34:29

just for the defense systems

34:31

themselves but it's for building the

34:33

technologies that be applied to so

34:35

many other industries. You know, it's

34:38

great, you know, that's, I think

34:40

maybe it's been too much of

34:43

Canada, you know, Canadians tend to

34:45

be, hey, let's be good partners

34:48

in doing something, right? And I

34:50

think at this level of national

34:52

defense, stuff like that, you have

34:55

to, every country has to

34:57

do their own thing. We've got

34:59

to learn to be a little

35:02

more self-reliant on a lot of

35:04

different things. That is very obvious

35:06

now. You know, at one point,

35:09

there are more submarines than

35:11

the west of Edmonton Mall than

35:13

there were in the Canadian Navy.

35:16

As these shifts in strategy and

35:18

technology unfolded, the arrow supporters found

35:20

themselves fighting an increasingly uphill

35:22

battle. They argued that the aircraft's

35:25

advanced design made it adaptable to

35:27

changing threats and it could be

35:30

modified to take on new roles.

35:32

However, these arguments were met with

35:34

growing skepticism in the corridors

35:36

of power where budgets were tight

35:39

and priorities were shifting. Once seen

35:41

as the vanguard of Canada's aerospace

35:44

future, the arrow was now caught

35:46

in a rapidly changing world. As

35:48

1959 dawned, the project's fate

35:50

hung in the balance. within and

35:53

beyond Canada's borders, pushing toward a

35:55

decision that would send shockwaves through

35:58

the nation's aviation industry. February 20th,

36:00

1959, that would come to

36:02

be known as Black Friday in

36:04

Canadian aviation history, dawned like any

36:07

other winter day in Ottawa, but

36:09

by its end, the landscape of

36:12

Canada's aerospace industry would be irrevocably

36:14

altered. In a move that

36:16

stunned many across the nation, Prime

36:18

Minister John Diefenbaker stood before the

36:21

House of Commons and announced the

36:23

immediate cancellation of the Avro Arrow

36:26

program. The decision delivered with a

36:28

mix of regret and resolve cited

36:30

changing global threats and escalating costs

36:33

as the primary reasons for this

36:35

drastic action. The announcement came as

36:38

a thunderbolt from the blue for

36:40

many, including Avro's management, where

36:42

there had been rumors and concerns

36:44

about the project's future, few were

36:47

prepared for such a sudden and

36:49

definitive end. The company had been

36:52

gearing up for a crucial review

36:54

in March with plans to

36:56

showcase the arrow's latest achievements and

36:58

potential. Instead, they found themselves facing

37:01

the immediate termination of their flagship

37:03

project. The impact of the cancellation

37:06

was immediate and devastating. In

37:08

one fell swoop, 14,528 Avro employees

37:10

were out of work. These were

37:12

not just assembly line workers, but

37:15

some of the brightest minds in

37:17

Canadian engineering and aerospace design. Scientists,

37:20

technicians, and skilled craftsmen who

37:22

had poured their expertise and passion

37:24

into the arrow project suddenly faced

37:26

an uncertain future. An estimated 15,000

37:29

additional jobs in the supply chain

37:31

were also affected. Small businesses and

37:34

specialized manufacturers that had built

37:36

their operations around supporting the arrow

37:38

program now faced the prospect of

37:40

closure. The economic impact was felt

37:43

across Ontario and beyond as communities

37:45

grappled with the sudden loss

37:47

of a significant industry. The human

37:50

toll of Black Friday was immense.

37:52

had built their lives around stable,

37:54

well-paying jobs in the aerospace sector

37:57

and now faced financial uncertainty. A

37:59

sense of betrayal and loss

38:01

replaced the pride of working on

38:04

a cutting-edge national project. For many,

38:06

the cancellation of the arrow represented

38:08

not just the end of a

38:11

job, but the shattering of a

38:13

dream. In the hours and days

38:16

following the announcement, scenes of disbelief

38:18

and despair played out across Avro's

38:20

facilities. Workers gathered in groups trying

38:23

to make sense of the sudden

38:25

turn of events. Some clung

38:27

to hope that the decision might

38:30

be reversed, while others immediately began

38:32

the grim task of looking for

38:34

new employment. The media descended on

38:37

Moulton Ontario, capturing images of shell-shocked

38:39

employees leaving the Avro plant

38:41

for the last time. These pictures

38:44

would become iconic representations of Black

38:46

Friday, symbolizing the human cost of

38:48

political decisions and shifting national priorities.

38:51

Jim Floyd, the famed Avro

38:53

engineer, recalled the abrupt nature of

38:55

the announcement. Quote, we were just

38:58

working and they put it over

39:00

the loudspeaker, everybody as from now,

39:02

was laid off, he said, describing

39:05

the moment when the entire

39:07

workforce learned of their fate simultaneously.

39:09

Bill Zuck, an aviation historian who

39:12

has extensively researched the arrow, noted

39:14

visible distress among the workers. Quote,

39:17

people's hearts fell out. I'm sure

39:19

there was some crying, he said.

39:21

However, Zuck also pointed out that

39:24

the news wasn't entirely unexpected, adding

39:26

quote, it wasn't exactly a surprise,

39:29

though, there had been rumors for

39:31

months. End quote. John Grisdale,

39:33

a former Avro employee who later

39:35

became involved in preserving the arrows

39:38

history, described the scene. We are

39:40

in shock. I could see it

39:43

in their eyes. Many of the

39:45

boys had gut themselves into

39:47

debt. It really got to me.

39:49

I tried to get them all

39:52

jobs." As news of the cancellation

39:54

spread, debates raged across the country.

39:57

Supporters of the arrow decried

39:59

the decision as short-sighted. arguing that

40:01

Canada was sacrificing its place at

40:03

the forefront of aerospace technology.

40:06

Critics countered that the program

40:08

had become too costly and

40:10

that the changing nature of

40:12

global threats necessitated a different

40:15

approach to national defense. Sure,

40:17

but it's very short-sighted and I'm

40:19

really surprised it was a conservative

40:22

government that did this as

40:24

well. It's tough to justify the cost

40:26

of a $6 million or $63 million

40:28

airplane. to a farmer in Saskatchewan. It's

40:30

really difficult to do. So you

40:32

won't be on a communal farm

40:34

when Russia attacked, so that's what

40:36

you would have said in the

40:38

50s. Sure, yeah. I guess so, but

40:41

some people think there were darker forces

40:43

at work. Anyway, amid this national

40:45

conversation, the employees of Avro and

40:47

its associated industries faced rebuilding

40:49

their lives and careers, many

40:52

would eventually find work in

40:54

other sectors or with American

40:56

aerospace companies. leading to what

40:58

some called a brain drain

41:00

as Canadian talent moves south

41:02

at the border. Black Friday marked

41:04

not just the end of the

41:06

Avro Arrow but a turning point

41:08

in Canadian industrial and military policy.

41:10

Its repercussions would be felt

41:13

for decades to come shaping

41:15

debates about national autonomy, technological

41:17

innovation and the role of

41:19

government in supporting key industries.

41:22

A series of events unfolded in

41:24

the wake of arrows cancellation

41:26

fueling decades of speculation and

41:29

controversy. Within two months

41:31

of the project's termination, the

41:33

Canadian government issued a shocking

41:35

order. All aircraft, engines, production tooling,

41:38

and technical data related to

41:40

the arrow and its Iroquois

41:42

engine were to be destroyed.

41:45

The destruction order was unprecedented

41:47

in its scope and finality.

41:49

Completed arrows, partially assembled

41:51

air frames, engines, and various

41:53

stages of completion, and even

41:56

the specialized tools used in

41:58

their manufacture were systematic. dismantled

42:00

and scrapped. Blueprints, technical manuals,

42:02

and years of research data

42:04

were consigned to the incinerator.

42:07

The official reason for this

42:09

drastic action was the need

42:11

to protect classified and secret

42:13

materials used in the Aero

42:15

and Iroquois programs. There were

42:18

concerns later partially corroborated by

42:20

the metrocan archives that Soviet

42:22

spies might have infiltrated Avro.

42:24

In the paranoid climate of

42:26

the Cold War, the complete

42:29

eradication of the project was

42:31

seen as the only way

42:33

to safeguard its advanced technology.

42:35

But they're not, that doesn't

42:37

hold water and they're not

42:40

safeguarding it, they're destroying it.

42:42

Yeah. You know this is

42:44

intellectual property or advancement that

42:46

could be used in so

42:48

many other ways. I kind

42:51

of also don't like that

42:53

they use First Nation Iroquois

42:55

as the name of a

42:57

program. Yeah. That's kind of

42:59

a little bit like Yeah

43:02

exactly. Sorry I just had

43:04

to throw that in because

43:06

it bothered me. But throwing

43:08

away all this tech and

43:10

the innovation and the ideas

43:13

even. It's just stupid. It's

43:15

stupidity. It's like burning Nikola

43:17

Tesla's notebook. Yeah. Yeah maybe

43:19

you don't like what he's

43:21

been up to and he's

43:24

challenging you Thomas Edison but

43:26

at the same time he's

43:28

got some really great ideas

43:30

that maybe we should have

43:32

another look at. Ridiculous. The

43:35

explanations of cost overruns and

43:37

alleged Soviet infiltration did little

43:39

to quell the sense of

43:41

loss and outrage felt by

43:43

many Canadians. Some saw the

43:46

destruction of the arrows as

43:48

an act of cultural vandalism

43:50

erasing a proud achievement of

43:52

Canadian engineering. Conspiracy theories began

43:54

circulating suggesting various hidden motives

43:57

behind the government's actions. Some

43:59

believe the United States pressured

44:01

Canada to cancel the arrow

44:03

to eliminate competition in aerospace

44:05

technology and secure Canadian reliance

44:08

on American defense systems like

44:10

the bullmark missile. One theory

44:12

suggests that Prime Minister John

44:14

Diefenbaker's personal dislike for Avro Canada President Crawford Gordon influenced

44:16

the decision. Their clashing personalities and political tensions may have

44:19

played a role. Critics argue that the government exaggerated the

44:21

costs of continuing the project to justify its cancellation. Others

44:23

claim foreign buyers were deliberately discouraged from purchasing the arrow.

44:25

Further undermining its viability. Amid this atmosphere of secrecy and

44:27

destruction, a tantalizing rumor took root. It was whispered

44:30

that Air Marshal W.A. Curtis, a

44:32

World War I. Ace, working at

44:34

Avro, had defied the government's order

44:36

and spirited away one of the

44:38

arrows to save it for posterity.

44:40

This rumor gained credence in 1968

44:42

when Curtis was directly asked

44:44

about it in an interview.

44:46

Curtis's response was cryptic and intriguing.

44:49

He replied, quote, I don't

44:51

want to answer that. Before

44:53

questioning the wisdom of revealing

44:55

such information even nine years

44:57

after the fact, He added, quote,

44:59

if it is in existence, it may have

45:02

to wait another 10 years. Politically,

45:04

it may cause a lot of

45:06

trouble, end quote. The idea of

45:08

a surviving arrow captured the

45:10

public imagination. It became a

45:12

modern Canadian myth, a story

45:14

of defiance against short-sighted bureaucracy

45:16

and a symbol of hope that

45:18

not all had been lost. Over

45:21

the years, various theories have been

45:23

proposed about the location of this

45:25

hypothetical surviving arrow, ranging from secret

45:28

underground hangars to remote lake bottoms.

45:30

While no concrete evidence has ever

45:32

emerged to support the existence of

45:35

a hidden arrow, it's still fun

45:37

for many included myself to ponder.

45:39

Maybe there's one out there. Of course,

45:41

over the years, questions have been

45:44

raised about the wisdom of obliterating

45:46

years of research and development. Critics

45:48

argued that even if the arrow

45:51

itself was deemed unnecessary, the technological

45:53

advancements made during its creation would

45:55

have been applied to other fields

45:57

or preserved for future projects. you

46:00

go. It's not just hindsight from

46:02

us. People were saying it then.

46:04

Yep. The thorough nature of the

46:07

destruction meant that when interest in

46:09

the arrow revived in later years,

46:11

researchers and aviation enthusiasts had to

46:14

rely mainly on personal recollections and

46:16

scattered surviving documents to piece together

46:19

the aircraft's story. This loss of

46:21

primary sources has only added to

46:23

the arrow's mystique and fueled ongoing

46:26

debates of what might have been.

46:28

The destruction and conspiracy theories transform

46:30

the aircraft from merely a canceled

46:33

project into a symbol of loss

46:35

potential and a focal point for

46:37

discussions about national pride, political decision-making,

46:40

and the preservation of technological heritage.

46:42

The cancellation of the Avro Arrow

46:44

program reverberated through Canadian society leaving

46:47

a trail of consequences that would

46:49

shape the nation's aerospace industry and

46:52

defense policy for decades to come.

46:54

The most immediate and visible impact

46:56

was the dissolution of Avro Aircraft

46:59

Limited Canada. This company, which had

47:01

grown to become a cornerstone of

47:03

Canadian aerospace innovation, found itself flailing

47:06

without a flagship project. In 1962,

47:08

barely three years after the Arrow's

47:10

cancellation, Hawker Cityly dissolved Avi Row

47:13

Canada and transferred all its assets

47:15

to a newly formed subsidiary Hawker

47:17

City Canada. The company that had

47:20

once employed thousands and stood at

47:22

the forefront of aerospace technology was

47:25

now relegated to the pages of

47:27

history. The vast facilities in Malt

47:29

in Ontario, which had once hummed

47:32

with the activity of cutting-edge aircraft

47:34

production, fell silent. In the vacuum

47:36

left by arrows cancellation, Canada turned

47:39

to foreign sources to meet its

47:41

air defense needs. The government acquired

47:43

American-made McConnell C.F. 101 Voodoo aircraft

47:46

to serve as its interceptors. This

47:48

decision was seen by many as

47:50

a step backward, replacing a homegrown

47:53

state-of-the-art design with an older, less

47:55

advanced... for an aircraft. There is

47:58

blood on my wall right now

48:00

from banging my head against it.

48:02

Yeah. This is all so ridiculous.

48:05

It is. It doesn't make any

48:07

good sense. In hindsight it doesn't

48:09

make any good sense and to

48:12

a lot of people then it

48:14

didn't make good sense. Yeah. While

48:16

capable in its own right, the

48:19

CF 101 voodoo symbolized for many

48:21

the lost opportunity represented by the

48:23

arrow. It served as a constant

48:26

reminder of what might have been

48:28

had Canada continued to pursue its

48:31

own aerospace designs. The Voodoos would

48:33

serve in the Royal Canadian Air

48:35

Force and later the Canadian forces

48:38

until 1984 bridging the gap until

48:40

the arrival of more modern fighters.

48:42

I recall seeing a CF 101

48:45

voodoo firsthand as a youngster when

48:47

the Air Force flew over downtown

48:49

Bridgewater. I don't remember why they

48:52

were there, but I do recall

48:54

being stunned by their sound and

48:56

sheer power, watching the jet engines

48:59

glow as the plane pulled up

49:01

deftly into the sky over the

49:04

town's old tavern. The loss of

49:06

the arrow project also impacted Canada's

49:08

broader technological capabilities. The aircraft had

49:11

pushed the boundaries in areas such

49:13

as computer-aided design, material science, and

49:15

electronics. Canada's position at the cutting

49:18

edge of these fields was diminished

49:20

without a project of similar ambition

49:22

to drive innovation. The aftermath of

49:25

arrows cancellation saw a shift in

49:27

Canada's approach to military procurement and

49:29

industrial policy. The experience led to

49:32

a more cautious approach to large-scale

49:34

high-risk projects. future governments would be

49:37

more inclined to pursue collaborative international

49:39

projects to purchase off-the-shelf solutions rather

49:41

than developing entirely new designs domestically

49:44

we've become little bitches to everybody

49:46

else so GDP you know how

49:48

to make GDP really strong if

49:51

you look at countries with high

49:53

GDP yeah this sort of technology

49:55

right and it's smart GDP yeah

49:58

because it's sustainable it's yeah It's

50:00

future. Well, companies like Bombardier would

50:02

later succeed in civilian aviation. Canada's

50:05

role in military aircraft development was

50:07

significantly reduced. The country that had

50:09

once aimed to produce the world's

50:12

most advanced interceptor now found itself

50:14

primarily as a component supplier and

50:17

maintenance provider for foreign-designed aircraft. The

50:19

End of the Arrow program also

50:21

led to soul searching about Canada's

50:24

place in the world and its

50:26

relationship with its powerful southern neighbour.

50:28

Some saw the decision to cancel

50:31

the project and adopt American aircraft

50:33

as a surrender of Canadian sovereignty

50:35

and technological independence. We're at that

50:38

point in history right now where

50:40

we have to look at this

50:42

again. We are currently reconsidering F-35

50:45

purchases from our neighbor to the

50:47

south after they've declared a trade

50:50

war on us. So we're looking

50:52

at other options. Perhaps a decision

50:54

will be made by the time

50:57

this episode drops, but we'll see.

50:59

Yeah, I mean, I don't think

51:01

we can make our own suddenly.

51:04

I'd love the program of making

51:06

some stuff ourselves. Yeah. but I'd

51:08

be more comfortable buying it from

51:11

the French. From the Francaise, in

51:13

the years following the arrows cancellation,

51:15

debates continued about the wisdom of

51:18

the decision. As global threats evolved

51:20

and military technology advanced periodic reassessments

51:23

of whether Canada had made the

51:25

right choice occurred. These discussions often

51:27

intersected with the broader questions about

51:30

national identity, industrial policy, and the

51:32

country's role in international affairs. Despite

51:34

its brief existence, the Avro Arrow

51:37

left an indelible mark, culture, and

51:39

national identity. In the decades following

51:41

its cancellation, the aircraft transcended its

51:44

role as a military project to

51:46

become a powerful symbol of Canadian

51:48

ingenuity, ambition, and the complex relationship

51:51

between technology, politics, and national pride.

51:53

I'm sad. Yeah, I wish we

51:56

had done better in this situation.

51:58

I really do. ourselves on our

52:00

own petard. Yes, we did. What

52:03

a shame. The Arrow's legacy is

52:05

perhaps most visible in popular culture.

52:07

The story of its development, cancellation

52:10

and destruction has been the subject

52:12

of many books, both fiction and

52:14

nonfiction. Authors have explored every aspect

52:17

of the Arrow saga from technical

52:19

histories to political thrillers based on

52:21

the project's demise. These works have

52:24

kept the Arrow's story alive in

52:26

the public consciousness. introducing new generations

52:29

to this chapter of Canadian history.

52:31

Television has also played a significant

52:33

role in perpetuating the Arrow's legacy.

52:36

Documentaries have delved into the aircraft's

52:38

technical achievements, the political circumstances surrounding

52:40

its cancellation, and the personal stories

52:43

of those involved in its creation.

52:45

In 1997, the CBC aired a

52:47

big-budget mini-series titled The Arrow, starring

52:50

Dan Acroy. This production brought the

52:52

story to a broader audience, further

52:54

cementing the Arrow's place and Canadian

52:57

cultural memory. I would love to

52:59

see a big screen adaptation of

53:02

the Arrow story one day. Maybe,

53:04

we'll see, it'll make a great

53:06

movie. A former Royal Air Force

53:09

pilot turned journalist Bill Gunston wrote

53:11

over 350 books and articles on

53:13

aircraft and aviation throughout his career.

53:16

Gunston's expertise and meticulous research made

53:18

him a trusted voice in aviation

53:20

circles. His ability to communicate complex

53:23

technical details in an accessible manner

53:25

has inspired a generation of aviation

53:27

enthusiasts. About the Avro Arrow, Gunston

53:30

offered this assessment. In its planning,

53:32

design and flight test program, this

53:35

fighter in almost every way the

53:37

most advanced of all fighters of

53:39

the 1950s was as impressive and

53:42

successful as any aircraft in history.

53:44

End quote. Had the Avro Arrow

53:46

succeeded, our country's political and military

53:49

legacy might have differed greatly. We'll

53:51

never know for sure. That's it

53:53

for episode 361 Avro Arrow, the

53:56

rise and fall of Canada. Canada's

53:58

dream fighter. Everyone has that friend

54:00

who seems kind of perfect. For

54:03

Patty, that friend was Desiré. Until

54:05

one day... I texted her and

54:08

she was not getting the text.

54:10

So I went to an Instagram.

54:12

She has no Instagram anymore. And

54:15

Facebook. No Facebook anymore. Desiré was

54:17

gone. And there was one person

54:19

who knew the answer. I am

54:22

a spiritual person, a magical person,

54:24

which... A gorgeous Brazilian influencer called

54:26

Cat Taurus, but who was hiding

54:29

a secret. From wonder, based on

54:31

my smash hit podcast from Brazil,

54:33

comes a new series. Don't cross

54:36

cat. About a search that led

54:38

me to a mystery, in a

54:41

Texas suburb. I'm calling to Czech,

54:43

or that you're missing, Brazilian girl.

54:45

Maybe get some undercover crew there.

54:48

The family are freaking up. I'm

54:50

Shikofeliti. You can listen to Don't

54:52

Cross Cat on the Wandery App

54:55

or wherever you get your podcasts.

54:57

Alan Rarig was found dead in

54:59

a parking lot in Oklahoma. He'd

55:02

been shot twice, once to the

55:04

head. You'd think his wife would

55:06

be devastated. Not exactly. She was

55:09

either the black widow or bad

55:11

luck. This is the unbelievable story

55:13

of a fem fatalities with the

55:16

trail of bodies in her wake.

55:18

From Sony Music Entertainment, this is

55:21

Fatal Beauty. Available now on the

55:23

binge. Search for Fatal Beauty wherever

55:25

you get your podcast to start

55:28

listening today. Hi everyone, I'm investigative

55:30

journalist and park enthusiast Delia Diambra.

55:32

And every week on my podcast,

55:35

Park Predators, I take you into

55:37

the heart of our world's most

55:39

stunning locations to uncover what sinister

55:42

crimes have unfolded in these serene

55:44

settings. From unsolved murders to chilling

55:46

disappearances, each Tuesday we dive deep

55:49

into the details of cases that

55:51

will leave you knowing sometimes the

55:54

most beautiful places. Hide the dark.

55:56

See secrets. Listen to park predators

55:58

now wherever you listen to podcasts.

56:01

That's right. It's time for voicemails.

56:03

You can leave us a message

56:05

at 1-877-327-57-5-786 or 1-877-D-A-R-K-T-N. We'd love

56:08

to hear from you. Let's see

56:10

who called us this week. Okay,

56:12

let's listen to some voicemails. Here's

56:15

our first one, Matthew. Hi, Mike

56:17

and Matthew. It's Lois Collin from

56:19

Southeastern Alberta, just down the road

56:22

from Dinosaur Provincial Park. I heard

56:24

one of you say that you

56:27

visited the Terrell Museum some time

56:29

ago, and I wonder why you

56:31

stopped there and didn't come all

56:34

the way out to the park

56:36

to see where the fossils came

56:38

from. So coming to visit us

56:41

again sometime. I've been listening for

56:43

a couple of years now and

56:45

it took me a while to

56:48

work my way through the entire

56:50

back catalog and I have to

56:52

say it's been fascinating to watch

56:55

the show develop and improve over

56:57

the years. Matthew, you are the

57:00

winningest of all the co-hosts. So

57:02

sorry to hear about your health

57:04

struggles. We're trusting for your healing

57:07

and Mike and the loss of

57:09

your dad since he has condolences.

57:11

I have some really wacky connections

57:14

to the show. I grew up

57:16

in London, Ontario. We had friends

57:18

in Strathroy, so we spent a

57:21

lot of time there as kids.

57:23

And one of the early episodes

57:25

I listened to was Your One

57:28

on the Donnellies, and that was

57:30

a story that figured prominently in

57:33

my childhood. So I really appreciated

57:35

your approach to that one. Now

57:37

I'd love to send you some

57:40

donut money, but I don't participate

57:42

in the dark magic of e-transfers,

57:44

and given your subject matter, I'm

57:47

amazed that you do not have

57:49

a post office box. Seems like

57:51

it might be very apropos. My

57:54

only complaint is that you only

57:56

crank out one episode a week,

57:58

and it's a long time between

58:01

drinks. speak. So appreciate your work

58:03

fellows and I invite you to

58:06

take a boom boom in your

58:08

parade. Bye for now. Thanks Lewis.

58:10

Last episode we had a somebody

58:13

still in London but I love

58:15

that she knows strathaway and I

58:17

want to go to the Alberta

58:20

Dinosaur provincial park so badly. Yeah

58:22

it was I've been to the

58:24

museum but I haven't been to

58:27

the park. Yeah. I would love

58:29

to go there. It's um, you

58:31

know, just dinosaur bones cool. Yeah,

58:34

it is cool. Maybe, maybe we

58:36

should. It doesn't matter how old

58:39

you are, you're still a kid.

58:41

Maybe we should go for a

58:43

drive in a summer, Matthew. Well,

58:46

we're gonna do London Ontario as

58:48

well, so. Maybe we should drive

58:50

across the country. Oh, yeah, you

58:53

don't want to be stuck in

58:55

a car with me farting for

58:57

an entire. No, that's how you

59:00

break the sound barrier. Yes, exactly.

59:02

Oh dear. Okay, so what do

59:04

you think Lois does there in

59:07

Alberta, Matthew? Lois has one of

59:09

those little paintbrushes and she wipes

59:12

away the soil and finds the

59:14

dinosaur bones. There you go. So

59:16

she does a bit of paleontology

59:19

there. Is that what it is?

59:21

I thought it was paintbrusher of

59:23

dinosaur bones. Sure. So let's call

59:26

it that. She's a dinosaur bone

59:28

paintbrusher. There you go. Great stuff.

59:30

Thank you, Lois. Yeah. Holy smokes.

59:33

We have another. Here we go.

59:35

Hi, Mike and Matt. This is

59:37

Lane. I'm not gonna tell you

59:40

where I'm from or what I

59:42

do because I'd appreciate it if

59:45

you guess. But I was just

59:47

calling because I was just listening

59:49

to your episode. The Unsolved Murder

59:52

of... I'm going

59:54

to mess this up

59:56

even though I just

59:58

listened to it. Reit

1:00:00

Jerviston. And... I was

1:00:02

listening to Matt's comment

1:00:04

about how to look

1:00:07

up the Joyce Parker

1:00:09

worst sketch ever. And

1:00:11

I automatically already knew

1:00:13

which sketch it was

1:00:15

going to be when

1:00:17

he started talking about

1:00:19

it and you talked

1:00:21

about the pointy chin.

1:00:25

I still looked it up anyways

1:00:27

because I needed to make sure

1:00:29

I was right. So I did

1:00:32

and I was correct and I

1:00:34

was just wondering if you guys

1:00:36

ever saw the one news report

1:00:39

where they're like, oh yeah, we

1:00:41

actually have a sketch of the

1:00:43

guy in and when they pulled

1:00:46

it up, the broadcaster just looked

1:00:48

at the cameraman, not sure if

1:00:50

it was a joke or not.

1:00:53

And then. Before they moved on

1:00:55

to the next segment, they're like,

1:00:57

oh, we actually caught the guy

1:01:00

showed his mug shots and the

1:01:02

broadcaster goes, no doubt from that

1:01:05

fantastic sketch. So I thought that

1:01:07

was funny. I enjoyed that broadcast.

1:01:09

I'll watch it anytime it pops

1:01:12

up on my my feed on

1:01:14

Instagram. So I was just wondering

1:01:16

if you guys had seen that

1:01:19

too. And I also wanted to

1:01:21

add Matt that you remind me.

1:01:23

of my uncle's husband and they're

1:01:26

they've both passed at this point

1:01:28

due to health problems but that

1:01:30

is a compliment I liked Frank

1:01:33

a lot Frank I was actually

1:01:35

a lot closer to him than

1:01:37

I was my uncle nothing against

1:01:40

my uncle we just didn't have

1:01:42

all that much in common well

1:01:44

thanks have a good day aren't

1:01:47

guncles the best guncles yeah I

1:01:49

didn't have a gunkel my my

1:01:51

my friend Scott Seelig had a

1:01:54

gun call Leo Lane, did she

1:01:56

read say your name was Lane?

1:01:58

Yep, yep. So Lane, my nephew

1:02:01

has stated to me that he

1:02:03

prefers Uncle Juice, he calls Uncle

1:02:05

Justin Juice, even though I'm his

1:02:08

blood uncle. Really? Uncle Juice is

1:02:10

but more interesting. Uncle Juice taught

1:02:12

him how to play Dungeons and

1:02:15

Dragons and stuff like that. So

1:02:17

Uncle Juice geeks out with them

1:02:20

on that game stuff. And Uncle

1:02:22

Matt, as he calls me, just

1:02:24

provides the sustenance and the meals.

1:02:27

There you go. But Lane, so

1:02:29

I think Lane is a... Well

1:02:31

where does Lane live first? Lane

1:02:34

lives in Ontario. Okay, in and

1:02:36

in Godrich, Ontario, Godrich, Ontario, the

1:02:38

prettiest town in Canada. Well, that's

1:02:41

what they say. Yeah, I think

1:02:43

the Queen said that actually. Well,

1:02:45

that's nice of hers. Has she

1:02:48

been anywhere else? Oh, yeah. Do

1:02:50

you know the Queen? I'm kidding.

1:02:52

Did you know? But fun fact,

1:02:55

the Queen visited Canada privately, like

1:02:57

something like 40 times over her

1:02:59

lifetime. Yeah. Right, and I think

1:03:02

she's a professional merge coach. Oh

1:03:04

teaching people at emergent traffic? Yeah,

1:03:06

I'm just playing with her name

1:03:09

Lane Okay, emergent to a different

1:03:11

Lane Lane is actually a cool

1:03:13

name But so I want Lane

1:03:16

to call back and tell us

1:03:18

like if that's short for something

1:03:20

or if it's just Lane is

1:03:23

cool. Well, thank you Lane. That's

1:03:25

it for this week's voicemails again.

1:03:27

You can leave us one at

1:03:30

1-87-7-7-6 or 1877 D-A-R-K-P-T-N. We'd love

1:03:32

to hear from you, even if

1:03:35

it is just to say hi

1:03:37

and to tell us to go

1:03:39

shit in our hats. If you're

1:03:42

stumped for what to chat with

1:03:44

us about, a quick story is

1:03:46

welcome. We don't have any new

1:03:49

patrons or Donut-money donors past and

1:03:51

present for your generosity. It helps

1:03:53

to keep the show going. You

1:03:56

can become a patron of Dark

1:03:58

Poutine at patreon.com/Dark Poutine. For a

1:04:00

one-time donation you can send us donut

1:04:02

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1:04:04

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1:04:06

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easily find Dark Putine on Apple

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1:04:17

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1:04:25

or anywhere fine books are sold.

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And speaking of Dark putine.com, check

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1:04:44

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1:04:47

up Canada and don't forget to be

1:04:49

a good egg and not a bad

1:04:51

apple. Not a bad yeblica. Yes.